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Old 02-11-2009, 05:58 AM   #1
Lupo
 
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Default [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Dungeon Fantasy 1 states that Bards need to "sing or play a musical instrument" in order to use his spells and abilities. (emphasis mine).

Under that assumption, why should a Bard choose to play an instrument rather than singing? (Singing obviously doesn't prevent you from wielding weapons and fighting; moreover, instruments can easily break, be stolen and so on).

I ask that because DF3 seems to imply that Bards need an instrument... e.g. under the Bard-Holy warrior lense, it says "playing an instrument whilst smiting demons isn’t easy – this combo calls for cunning play."; under the Bard-Scout, it refers to the Bow Harp (an expensive dual-purpose weapon/instrument that nobody would buy if he could simply sing).

If Bards ARE allowed to simply sing, how is this a "limitation"?

Another (unrelated) question... many "other profession - Bard" lenses have Singing/Musical Instrument skills lower than 14, yet they list bardic spells and powers.
Should that be errata-ed? There is NO point in acquiring bardic spells and powers if you can't use them (per DF1, a musical skill 14 is required)
Bard lenses should all include either Singing or Musical instrument at 14, and only then buy some Bardic spells/powers.

=====

Yet another (even more unrelated) question: in your opinion, what is the point in playing a Druid?
Wizards have a lot more spells than Druids; Clerics have a limited list, but they can HEAL. Many Druidic spells are of dubious utility (being very expensive, slow to cast, not-so-direct). Moreover, Druids get a -3 penalty in most dungeon, so they are WAY more limited than mages/clerics, who only rarely encounter low-mana or low-sanctity zones (I hope we all agree that in Dungeon Fantasy, dungeons are much more common than low-mana zones).

From a combat perspective, Druids are similar to Wizards and weaker than Clerics.
Some Druidic powers are nice, but most are too expensive or simply useless (20/30 points for Speak with animals or Mind Control Animals are a bad joke for a profession with access to animal spells; Damage Resistance limited to Elemental is perhaps the worst deal in the whole DF book...)
Outdoor/survival skills are nice, but other professions have those, too (Barbarians and Scouts).
Having a Summonable cave bear as your ally is nice, but then again, Clerics and Holy Warriors have Divine Servitors, who are FAR better because animals attack unarmed and thus are easily maimed by armed parries.
So I can't see where Druids are supposed to excel, compared to other profession. Of course you can choose to play a Druid for roleplaying reason, but... in a "munchkin" game you will probably regret that decision soon enough :)
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Old 02-11-2009, 09:10 AM   #2
Kenvain
 
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

I know there are non traditional instruments (not using lute, harp, trumpet) that you could employ. I dunno a magical drummer....

But this was a question about singing vs. instruments. I can think of some situations where the Bard's magic would be hindered. IDHMBWM but some may optionally include them.

1) The Bard is in an area where there is a Noxious gas. He might need to inhale to sustain his spell that allows him and his party to pass through unhurt. Oops! now he's affected. (Filterlungs aside)

2) Combat has moved to an underwater setting. Aside from breathing spells/ or other that are cast prior to entering the water the bard must have an ability to speak underwater in-order to continue or recast. Who says mini-xylophones don't work underwater?

3) If the bard is gagged, choked, or restrained, (in a vacuum?) in a way to inhibit his voice casting should be at a penalty or unavailable (if you can only use magery or an advantage dependent on bardic singing).

Maybe not so in the case of gagging as that would be more in the manner of being caught and having your instruments taken away anyways. But if you have someone strangling you with both hands your hands may be available to use your instrument.

I do not have the DF books so I don't know if skill rolls are required for your singing or instrument playing. I'd say some instruments would be penalized for shock penalty (-DX). As for singing anything that affects HT could apply when you're using your power/ability.

I am currently playing a semi-bardic archer that uses song to enhance / guide his arrows or root his prey. I hope you get some other feedback from this.

Hope this Helps

Kenstah

EDIT: Added some examples

Last edited by Kenvain; 02-11-2009 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 02-11-2009, 09:34 AM   #3
malloyd
 
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
Dungeon Fantasy 1 states that Bards need to "sing or play a musical instrument" in order to use his spells and abilities. (emphasis mine).

Under that assumption, why should a Bard choose to play an instrument rather than singing?
He may not want to telegraph the effect (assuming singing requires a song with words related to the spell effect, a likely condition). He may not want to call attention to himself by speaking but be in a situation where providing background music is perfectly reasonable. He may not want to reveal his accent. He might want to cast a spell while carrying on a conversation (assuming your GM lets you do this with a multitasking penalty instead of forbidding it outright). He might have learned all his spells in the version that requires a particular instrument rather than his voice (a valid option, no different from learning them requiring a specific material component after all), he might be a lousy singer and not want to embarass himself (instruments and singing are based on different attributes, and take different modifiers). He might get some small benefit from it (compare the kind of bribes used to encourage mages to use staves or wands). He might *enjoy* playing music, perhaps equivalent to being played by a player who adheres to genre conventions even when he doesn't get a munchkined benefit from them.

Quote:
(Singing obviously doesn't prevent you from wielding weapons and fighting
Actually done right, especially if done for spellcasting, it probably does. You can hold a weapon while singing, but serious physical exertion like actually fighting is not going to work well.
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:04 AM   #4
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo

Under that assumption, why should a Bard choose to play an instrument rather than singing?
Others have given several reasons why. The big one for me is that some instruments specifically can be played quietly (as noted in their descriptions), while singing is always audible. So a bard sneaking around in a dungeon will be better off with a gentle harp than with bellowing. And given how common deadly gas from breath weapons, pastilles, spells, and traps is meant to be in the dungeon, it's nice to be able to cast spells without singing. In any event, it's an either/or proposition determined as the situation permits, not for the bard's entire career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo

If Bards ARE allowed to simply sing, how is this a "limitation"?
It's rather noisy, and as the rules state: "Anything that affects others only works on targets who can hear the music, while any messages or instructions the bard sends have to be hidden in song." So a bard's magic is totally worthless against anybody deaf or even who plugs his ears. That's a huge limitation all on its own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo

Another (unrelated) question... many "other profession - Bard" lenses have Singing/Musical Instrument skills lower than 14
Which ones?
  • Barbarian-Bard: Barbarian has HT 13, lens gives Singing @ HT, and lens includes Musical Ability 1. Final Singing is HT+1 = 14.
  • Cleric-Bard: Cleric has HT 12, lens gives Singing @ HT, and lens includes Musical Ability 1 and Voice. Final Singing is HT+3 = 15.
  • Druid-Bard: Druid has HT 13, lens gives Singing @ HT, and lens includes Musical Ability 1 and Voice. Final Singing is HT+3 = 16.
  • Holy Warrior-Bard: Holy Warrior has HT 13, lens gives Singing @ HT, and lens includes Musical Ability 1. Final Singing is HT+1 = 14.
  • Knight-Bard: Knight has HT 13, lens gives Singing @ HT, and lens includes Musical Ability 1. Final Singing is HT+1 = 14.
  • Martial Artist-Bard: Martial Artist has HT 12, lens gives Singing @ HT+1, and lens includes Musical Ability 1. Final Singing is HT+2 = 14.
  • Scout-Bard: Scout has HT 12, lens gives Singing @ HT+1, and lens includes Musical Ability 1. Final Singing is HT+2 = 14.
  • Swashbuckler-Bard: Swashbuckler has HT 13, lens gives Singing @ HT, and lens includes Musical Ability 1. Final Singing is HT+1 = 14.
  • Thief-Bard: Thief has HT 11, lens gives Singing @ HT+2, and lens includes Musical Ability 1. Final Singing is HT+3 = 14.
  • Wizard-Bard: Wizard has IQ 15 and HT 11, lens gives Musical Instrument @ IQ-2 and Singing @ HT, and lens includes Musical Ability 1 and Voice. Final Musical Instrument is IQ-1 = 14. Final Singing is HT+3 = 14.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo

Bard lenses should all include either Singing or Musical instrument at 14, and only then buy some Bardic spells/powers.
And they all do. I made sure of that. You seem to be omitting advantage bonuses or something . . . but those count, as it's solely final skill level (14+) that one uses to meet the prerequisite. The footnotes on Musical Ability and Voice are under the lenses to make sure that people don't miss this!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo

Yet another (even more unrelated) question: in your opinion, what is the point in playing a Druid?
  1. To learn Animal, Plant, and Weather spells, which neither clerics nor wizards can cast (and to have related powers).
  2. To have practically any gigantic Alternate Form you like, per the power-ups in DF 3.
  3. To have the really awesome beast Allies in DF 5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo

Damage Resistance limited to Elemental is perhaps the worst deal in the whole DF book...)
You do realize that this means "all damage from Air, Earth, Fire, or Water effects," which encompasses most of the direct-damage spells in the game? Along with natural fire, falling stone, etc.? It doesn't mean "vs. elemental spirits" or "vs. powers with the Elemental modifier," or anything else so obscure. It means "if you can explain this as one of the four classic elements, you get your DR against it."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo

So I can't see where Druids are supposed to excel
Where they always do in classic dungeon fantasy: against scary plants and animals, as well as outside the dungeon, on wilderness adventures. This is why DF 2 has a Wilderness Adventures essay (p. 29) and specifically states (p. 30), "Druid: With his abilities weakened underground, it's crucial that part of each adventure happen outdoors. Don't make every monster a demon, Elder Thing, or similar horror – include hostile animals and plants, too." That is, if a player selects a druid for roleplaying reasons, then the GM has an obligation to include him in the fun. That's really no different from saying that if everybody plays a warrior, you shouldn't run purely social adventures meant for bards.
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:37 AM   #5
Lupo
 
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
So a bard sneaking around in a dungeon will be better off with a gentle harp than with bellowing.
That's true, I didn't think of it! In fights, though, no bard will play an instrument - the fight istelf will be more noisy than singing, and he needs free hands for weapons!

Quote:
It's rather noisy, and as the rules state: "Anything that affects others only works on targets who can hear the music, while any messages or instructions the bard sends have to be hidden in song." So a bard's magic is totally worthless against anybody deaf or even who plugs his ears. That's a huge limitation all on its own.
Yes you are right, but this limitation would apply to musical instruments as well as singing. Some instruments could actually be easier than voice to silence, since they are quiet.
I imagine that bards would rarely use an instrument, and that's a pity - I would probably have preferred if the Limitation forced you to play (not just sing). But that's only personal taste!

Quote:
And they all do. I made sure of that. You seem to be omitting advantage bonuses or something . . .
I am sorry for wasting your time, I totally forgot about Singing being based on HT!
So you are perfectly right, even the low-IQ professions will be able to use bardic powers (albeit they won't have the option of playing an instrument instead of singing)

Quote:
The footnotes on Musical Ability and Voice are under the lenses to make sure that people don't miss this!
I saw those but I somehow missed the "(HT)" written next to "Singing" :)

Quote:
[*]To have the really awesome beast Allies in DF 5.
Dungeon Fantasy 5: Allies is awesome! The beasts are very cool but (from a munchkin perspective) I think Divine Servitors are preferable.


Quote:
You do realize that this means "all damage from Air, Earth, Fire, or Water effects," which encompasses most of the direct-damage spells in the game? Along with natural fire, falling stone, etc.?
It still is a bad deal when compared to the Martial Artist's and Barbarian's Damage Resistance (Tough Skin) that is cheaper AND works against everything (but contact poisons).
Anyway, thanks for pointing out it works against ALL elements (I thought it was limited to ONE element, for -40%).

Quote:
That is, if a player selects a druid for roleplaying reasons, then the GM has an obligation to include him in the fun. That's really no different from saying that if everybody plays a warrior, you shouldn't run purely social adventures meant for bards.
Yes but I still feel that the Druid is more specific than other Professions and his niche narrower. As if "Illusionist" was a Profession, instead of Wizard...
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:56 AM   #6
Kromm
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

"Druid" is a narrow profession. It's there because it's expected, not because it really stands on its own as well as the others. To be honest, were I running a pure underground dungeon crawl as one of my typical six-player games, I would expect to see a cleric, a holy warrior, a knight, a thief, a wizard, and either a martial artist or a swashbuckler. But if I were running a wilderness crawl, I could definitely see that changing to a barbarian, a cleric, a druid, a knight, a scout, and a wizard. And in an urban street crawl, I'd probably get a bard, a cleric, a martial artist, a swashbuckler, a thief, and a wizard.

Thus, barbarian, bard, druid, holy warrior, and scout are all rather niche, in my experience. So are martial artist and swashbuckler, but they have some sort of "cool factor" that makes them more popular than they ought to be. The staples, of course, are the cleric (healing), knight (fighting), thief (traps), and wizard (general spell support). I'd be shocked to see a party that lacked more than one of those four!

This ignores the two new professions in DF 4. I would put the artificer and scholar in the same boat as the other niche roles. I would expect to see the occasional artificer instead of a thief on a dungeon or urban adventure (but never on a wilderness one!), and the rare scholar in lieu of a bard, or instead of having both a martial artist and a swashbuckler, on an urban adventure.
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Old 02-11-2009, 12:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
It still is a bad deal when compared to the Martial Artist's and Barbarian's Damage Resistance (Tough Skin) that is cheaper AND works against everything (but contact poisons).
Don't forget blunt trauma.
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Old 02-11-2009, 12:10 PM   #8
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
It still is a bad deal when compared to the Martial Artist's and Barbarian's Damage Resistance (Tough Skin) that is cheaper AND works against everything (but contact poisons).
Really? This is what I'm seeing out of DF3.

Quote:
Barbarian Damage Resistance 1 or 2 (Limited, Crushing, -40%; Tough Skin, -40%) [1 or 2]
Here is what I see out of DF1

Quote:
Martial Artist Damage Resistance 1 or 2 (PM, -10%; Tough Skin, -40%) [3 or 5]

Druid Damage Resistance 1 or 2 (Limited, Elemental, -20%; PM, -10%) [4 or
7];
Barbarians have (-80%) in limitations, Martial Artists have (-50%) and Druids have (-30%).

Yes, Druidic DR is the most expensive, but it also looks like it is the most useful overall.
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Old 02-11-2009, 01:01 PM   #9
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Thus, barbarian, bard, druid, holy warrior, and scout are all rather niche, in my experience. So are martial artist and swashbuckler, but they have some sort of "cool factor" that makes them more popular than they ought to be. The staples, of course, are the cleric (healing), knight (fighting), thief (traps), and wizard (general spell support). I'd be shocked to see a party that lacked more than one of those four!
My experience is that the scout is the key 5th man, as the expert ranged combatant who's reasonably competent in the dungeon and a life-saver when fighting flying beasties outside. Wizards simply don't have the accuracy or rate of fire to compare.

My group has generally preferred swashbucklers over knights; I don't know why. Thieves, wizards, and clerics are nearly required, as well as some kind of big fighting guy (barbarian/knight/holy warrior/munchkin swashbuckler).
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Old 02-11-2009, 03:01 PM   #10
Lupo
 
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company
Don't forget blunt trauma.
It very rarely, if ever, comes into play, as you suffer 1 point of blunt trauma for every 5 full points of damage stopped by your flexible DR. So you'll need to have a flexible DR of at least 5, or it simply can't happen. And you don't suffer blunt trauma if even a single injury penetrates your DR... so you suffer blunt trauma only when you are struck for exactly 5 points of damage.
(crushing damage; if not crushing, 10 points are needed)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog
Really? This is what I'm seeing out of DF3.
In DF3, Barbarians have also DR (Tough Skin, -40%), not limited to crushing. They can take either or both.

Quote:
Barbarians have (-80%) in limitations, Martial Artists have (-50%) and Druids have (-30%).

Yes, Druidic DR is the most expensive, but it also looks like it is the most useful overall.
Tough skin is widely considered a free limitation in the "GURPS community", so to speak. In a DF game, DR (Tough Skin) is unarguably far more effective than DR (Limited: Elemental), and is cheaper, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Thus, barbarian, bard, druid, holy warrior, and scout are all rather niche, in my experience. So are martial artist and swashbuckler, but they have some sort of "cool factor" that makes them more popular than they ought to be.
Not to mention the sheer combat effectiveness of Swashbucklers.
The key advantage of bards, barbarians and scouts, compared to druids, is *flexibility*.
Scout and barbarians are quite well-rounded fighters, and can easily evolve into killing machines (only very few "combative" advantages are unavailable to them). So even if their niche is narrow, they can easily "mimic" a knight, and having some wilderness options is nice.
Bards aren't very good at anything at 250 points, but they are quite free to improve... becoming either decent fighters or good spellcasters. Moreover they have access to social traits that from time to time are useful in every DF campaign (if only for buying/selling magic items).
I feel the Druid is much less flexible than those other "niche" professions and so less appealing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
The staples, of course, are the cleric (healing), knight (fighting), thief (traps), and wizard (general spell support). I'd be shocked to see a party that lacked more than one of those four!
A party could easily replace the knight with a swashbuckler/barbarian/scout, without major consequences.
On the other hand, if they replace either the wizard or the cleric with a druid, they are probably DEAD :)
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