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Old 09-19-2020, 10:03 PM   #1
Pectus Solentis
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Live in Seoul, Korea and I have never been abroad.
Default [Spaceships, Ultra-Tech] On-board Sensors

In GURPS Spaceships 1 and 4, 0.5ton Enhanced Sensor Array (for SM+4 spacecrafts) costs $20K and it has 64x magnifications (Sensor Level 6) at TL11.

But in GURPS Ultra-Tech, Large Multi-mode Radar (p.UT65) costs $100K and weighs 100 lbs. And Hyperspectral Imaging Sensors Array (p.UT61) costs $160K, weighs 50 lbs and x128 magnifications at TL11.

Why are the Spaceship Sensor Array so cheap and low-performanced?

I guess Spaceship Sensor Arrays are more bulky than Ground-Vehicle Sensor Arrays so there may be no need for compactizations which increases its cost, but then why are the Spaceship Sensor low-performanced than Ground-Vehicle Sensor Arrays...? I think it makes no sense that 0.5tons of Spacecraft Sensor Arrays have low performance than much lighter Ground-Vehicle Sensor Arrays.

Below is my Planet Surface Exploration Robot. Its sheet is made from GURPS Spaceship's rules. Well, is it senseless that making Ground Robots' sheet with GURPS Spaceship's rule?

Quote:
*SM +4, Loaded mass 10ton, TL11
*Front
**System 1 : Armor, Metallic Laminate, dDR 2.
**System 2 : Armor, Metallic Laminate, dDR 2.
**System 3 : Cargo Hold, 0.5ton
**System 4 : Cargo Hold, 0.5ton
**System 5 : Cargo Hold, 0.5ton
**System 6 : Cargo Hold, 0.5ton
**Core System : Control Room : C7 computers. Essentially operated with 1 pilot, but unmanned operation is posibble.
*Central
**System 1 : Armor, Metallic Laminate, dDR 2.
**System 2 : Armor, Metallic Laminate, dDR 2.
**System 3 ! Weapons, Major Battery, 1.5MJ Blasters Turret * 2 : 2 Blasters that each of it has 1.5MJ output, equipped on the shoulders of this robot. Used for demolition, but in emergency it can be used as weapons.
***It is my house-rule equipment, made from GURPS Ultra-Tech's descriptions and my imagination.
**System 4 : Enhanced Sensor Array
**System 5 : Robot Arms, dST 15
**System 6 : Robot Arms, dST 15
**Core System : Fusion Reactor (2!)
*Rear
**System 1 : Armor, Metallic Laminate, dDR 2.
**System 2 : Armor, Metallic Laminate, dDR 2.
**System 3 : Cargo Hold, 0.5ton
**System 4 : Cargo Hold, 0.5ton
**System 5 ! Robot Legs : 2 Robot Legs.
**System 6 : Robot Legs
**Core System : N/A
*Costs 0.945M$
*It has stealth and dynamic chameleon hull options
*Equipped emergency ejection system.

Last edited by Pectus Solentis; 09-19-2020 at 10:20 PM.
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Old 09-19-2020, 10:49 PM   #2
Rupert
 
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Default Re: [Spaceships, Ultra-Tech] On-board Sensors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pectus Solentis View Post
In GURPS Spaceships 1 and 4, 0.5ton Enhanced Sensor Array (for SM+4 spacecrafts) costs $20K and it has 64x magnifications (Sensor Level 6) at TL11.

But in GURPS Ultra-Tech, Large Multi-mode Radar (p.UT65) costs $100K and weighs 100 lbs. And Hyperspectral Imaging Sensors Array (p.UT61) costs $160K, weighs 50 lbs and x128 magnifications at TL11.

Why are the Spaceship Sensor Array so cheap and low-performanced?

I guess Spaceship Sensor Arrays are more bulky than Ground-Vehicle Sensor Arrays so there may be no need for compactizations which increases its cost, but then why are the Spaceship Sensor low-performanced than Ground-Vehicle Sensor Arrays...? I think it makes no sense that 0.5tons of Spacecraft Sensor Arrays have low performance than much lighter Ground-Vehicle Sensor Arrays.
The arrays in Spaceships include Extended High and Low Band Vision, whereas even the PESA sensors in [I][B]Ultra-Tech[I][B] do not (they only have Low-Band). They also have ESM systems to detect communication and active sensor emissions from other ships. They have active sensors as well, both radar and laser, and they are large and advanced enough to have no practical target tracking limit (with a rande of 1.5 light seconds in the case of your example system). On top of this, they include radio and laser communications systems with very long range (1.5 AU in your example). Finally, all of these sensors and comms function over the whole sky.

I don't think the mass is at all unreasonable. The low cost might be, but unlike the UT systems these ones don't need rugged casings, and the whole system only needs one UI, saving on the cost of screens, input keyboards, and so on.

Also, remember that the design system is intended to produce reasonable results across a huge range of sizes, and was originally for spaceships only. It's not surprising that at the very high and low ends of the scale and for non spaceships it gets a bit weird. I think it does a very good job, all things considered, but it's not perfect.
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Old 09-19-2020, 11:11 PM   #3
Pectus Solentis
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
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Default Re: [Spaceships, Ultra-Tech] On-board Sensors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
The arrays in Spaceships include Extended High and Low Band Vision, whereas even the PESA sensors in Ultra-Tech do not (they only have Low-Band). They also have ESM systems to detect communication and active sensor emissions from other ships. They have active sensors as well, both radar and laser, and they are large and advanced enough to have no practical target tracking limit (with a rande of 1.5 light seconds in the case of your example system). On top of this, they include radio and laser communications systems with very long range (1.5 AU in your example). Finally, all of these sensors and comms function over the whole sky.
I saw that differences by comparing Spaceships and Ultra-Tech.
But when Spaceships' Sensor Array do the good performances on that long distance than Ultra-Tech's Sensor Array, I think Spaceships' Sensor Array should be expensive than Ultra-Tech's. Even SM+4 Science Sensor Array is cheaper than the set of Ultra-Tech sensors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
I don't think the mass is at all unreasonable. The low cost might be, but unlike the UT systems these ones don't need rugged casings, and the whole system only needs one UI, saving on the cost of screens, input keyboards, and so on.
Well, will it justify Spaceships' Sensor Array is much cheap (over 1/10 of the cost) than Ultra-Tech's Sensor Array?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Also, remember that the design system is intended to produce reasonable results across a huge range of sizes, and was originally for spaceships only. It's not surprising that at the very high and low ends of the scale and for non spaceships it gets a bit weird. I think it does a very good job, all things considered, but it's not perfect.
Well...

Last edited by Pectus Solentis; 09-19-2020 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 09-20-2020, 09:29 PM   #4
Pectus Solentis
 
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Default Re: [Spaceships, Ultra-Tech] On-board Sensors

In fact, the sum of the prices of PESA, LADAR, and RADAR described in Ultra-Tech (well, is there more sensors in Spaceships' setup?) is much expensive ($460K) than even SM+6 Spacecrafts' Enhanced Sensor Array (which costs $200K) but is much lighter (250 lbs) than SM+4 Spacecrafts' (which weighs 0.5ton).

I thought that the sensors intended for ground uses is difficult to build than that intended for space uses because ground has more obstacles for sensors to be operated than space, so that cost differences between these maybe make sense...

But will it justify that the weight of ground sensors which are much lighter than space sensors?

Last edited by Pectus Solentis; 09-20-2020 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 09-20-2020, 09:58 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Spaceships, Ultra-Tech] On-board Sensors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pectus Solentis View Post
In fact, the sum of the prices of PESA, LADAR, and RADAR described in Ultra-Tech (well, is there more sensors in Spaceships' setup?) is much expensive ($460K) than even SM+6 Spacecrafts' Enhanced Sensor Array (which costs $200K) but is much lighter (250 lbs) than SM+4 Spacecrafts' (which weighs 0.5ton).

I thought that the sensors intended for ground uses is difficult to build than that intended for space uses because ground has more obstacles for sensors to be operated than space, so that cost differences between these maybe make sense...

But will it justify that the weight of ground sensors which are much lighter than space sensors?
Well, right off the bat let's not overlook the basic fact that the Enhanced Sensor Array's weight is set: it's one ship system. The question isn't why it weighs that much, but why it performs as it does for that weight.
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:13 PM   #6
Pectus Solentis
 
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Default Re: [Spaceships, Ultra-Tech] On-board Sensors

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Well, right off the bat let's not overlook the basic fact that the Enhanced Sensor Array's weight is set: it's one ship system. The question isn't why it weighs that much, but why it performs as it does for that weight.
The sum of the weights of PESA, Ladar, Radar, Laser Comms, Radio Comms that is described in Ultra-Tech (summed the largest devices that is described in Ultra-Tech) is 1050 lbs, app. 0.5 tons, the weight of SM+4 Spacecraft's one modules. And it costs $520K. I omitted comm suites before, and my questions for Sensors' weight is resolved now.

But why the SM+4 Spaceships' Sensor is that much cheaper than the sum of Ultra-Tech devices is still a question to me. Ultra-Tech devices is 26 times expensive than SM+4 Spaceships' sensor...

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Old 09-20-2020, 10:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Spaceships, Ultra-Tech] On-board Sensors

Mis-submitted this post. Maybe I double-clicked Save button. Please ignore this post.

Last edited by Pectus Solentis; 09-21-2020 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 09-20-2020, 11:04 PM   #8
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [Spaceships, Ultra-Tech] On-board Sensors

Since Spaceships is the later document, the question should probably be reversed, why is UT so expensive compared to it? One thing we had seen IRL is a dramatic reduction in the cost of sensors, I can get an IR video camera the size of a largish cheese cube for $20 off Amazon (my fiancee used them to prove that we had mice last year). The same technology in UT costs 12x as much and weighs 4x as much.
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Old 09-20-2020, 11:36 PM   #9
Pectus Solentis
 
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Default Re: [Spaceships, Ultra-Tech] On-board Sensors

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Since Spaceships is the later document, the question should probably be reversed, why is UT so expensive compared to it? One thing we had seen IRL is a dramatic reduction in the cost of sensors, I can get an IR video camera the size of a largish cheese cube for $20 off Amazon (my fiancee used them to prove that we had mice last year). The same technology in UT costs 12x as much and weighs 4x as much.
What does IRL mean? A kind of infrared motion camera?
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Old 09-21-2020, 12:06 AM   #10
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Default Re: [Spaceships, Ultra-Tech] On-board Sensors

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Originally Posted by Pectus Solentis View Post
But will it justify that the weight of ground sensors which are much lighter than space sensors?
One thing is that the ship's sensors cover the whole sky sphere all the time. Vehicle sensors seldom have to point very far downwards, and often aren't expected to cover 360-degrees all the time. That means the sensing elements are about twice as big and heavy on a spaceship. The processing components on a ship will also need to be bigger, to handle the extra load this extra coverage means.

Overall, I don't think doubling the mass is far off. Oh, and the UT gear is man-portable or light vehicle installations, so they're not including any cooling, maintenance spaces, etc. in their weight, whereas the Spaceships systems include all that stuff.

EDIT: 'IRL' in this context means "In Real Life".
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