[Horror] Terror Ignored?

[JCurwen3]

I found it odd that the Terror advantage was ignored, with not so much as a mention in the advantages list, and with few templates having it (instead having Afflictions like the Horrifying Window ones), even though it's the most direct way to cause Fright Checks.

Also, I'd have liked to see a modifier (possibly Cosmic) that officially granted a Terror ability that could cause Sanity blasting Fright (Madness) Checks. Would that be Cosmic +50%?

Also no mention of Awe and Confusion, which could have places in a Cosmic or other Horror game. And I've always wondered if there was an official ruling on whether Awe and / or Confusion could be mitigated (or made impossible) by Fearlessness and Unfazeable.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Also, I'd have liked to see a modifier (possibly Cosmic) that officially granted a Terror ability that could cause Sanity blasting Fright (Madness) Checks. Would that be Cosmic +50%?

Pretty much any flavor of Terror will have a detrimental effect on the victim's sanity if you take enough levels and the dice go your way...

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

And I've always wondered if there was an official ruling on whether Awe and / or Confusion could be mitigated (or made impossible) by Fearlessness and Unfazeable.

"All the rules for Fright Checks apply to these rolls, including modifiers for advantages and disadvantages (see p. B360). The only difference is that failures go to the Awe and Confusion Check Table (p. 85)." ... BUT ... "Godlike beings often have the "irresistible attack" level of Cosmic (p. B103). Victims get no benefit from advantages such as Fearlessness or Unfazeable (unless those traits are Cosmic)..."

--4e Powers, p 84

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

Pretty much any flavor of Terror will have a detrimental effect on the victim's sanity if you take enough levels and the dice go your way...

Not so - an Unfazeable character can get, at best, a +8 vs. Sanity-Blasting Fright Checks (Horror, p. 19). But they're immune to any other kind. That'd mean that with Terror and Unfazeable as written, Terror could never affect an Unfazeable character. Only on not-Unfazeable characters will Terror eventually chip away at Stress enough to cause Derangement and eventually full on Madness.

I'd want to build a Terror-based ability that hit that Unfazeable guy with an immediately Sanity-Blasting Fright Check wherein they only got a +8 to resist.

On that note, if Unfazeable only gives +8 (as opposed to full-on Immunity) to Sanity-Blasting Fright Checks, what is the effect of Fearlessness (or, for that matter, Fearfulness - also not mentioned in Horror) on them? Would a Fearlessness +8 only work at +3 (and then, what if its intermediate and lower levels)?

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

I found it odd that the Terror advantage was ignored, with not so much as a mention in the advantages list, and with few templates having it (instead having Afflictions like the Horrifying Window ones), even though it's the most direct way to cause Fright Checks.

Also, I'd have liked to see a modifier (possibly Cosmic) that officially granted a Terror ability that could cause Sanity blasting Fright (Madness) Checks. Would that be Cosmic +50%?

Also no mention of Awe and Confusion, which could have places in a Cosmic or other Horror game. And I've always wondered if there was an official ruling on whether Awe and / or Confusion could be mitigated (or made impossible) by Fearlessness and Unfazeable.

Not so - an Unfazeable character can get, at best, a +8 vs. Sanity-Blasting Fright Checks (Horror, p. 19). But they're immune to any other kind. That'd mean that with Terror and Unfazeable as written, Terror could never affect an Unfazeable character. Only on not-Unfazeable characters will Terror eventually chip away at Stress enough to cause Derangement and eventually full on Madness.

I'd want to build a Terror-based ability that hit that Unfazeable guy with an immediately Sanity-Blasting Fright Check wherein they only got a +8 to resist.

On that note, if Unfazeable only gives +8 (as opposed to full-on Immunity) to Sanity-Blasting Fright Checks, what is the effect of Fearlessness (or, for that matter, Fearfulness - also not mentioned in Horror) on them? Would a Fearlessness +8 only work at +3 (and then, what if its intermediate and lower levels)?

Regarding the lack of attention given to Terror and Fearfulness: Both are mentioned in the text. Maybe Ken felt that they were straightforward enough that they did not need any special mention or notes *shrug* Awe and Confusion are generally less appropriate... Awe at least gets a mention in the inset about angels on p95.

Upgrading Terror: I think something like a Lingering Effect Cosmic (+100%) would be needed to bump it up to Sanity-Blasting level.

Effects of Fearlessness and Fearfulness: Given the lack of special mention regarding them, it seems reasonable to assume that both work normally when making a Sanity-Blasting Fright Check.

[Kromm]

We don't call out existing traits in new books merely to say, "Hey, this trait is really appropriate!" We spend our limited words on traits when said traits need extra rules for a particular genre or setting, notes on how to interact with other things in the book, new modifiers or specialties, and/or warnings about being overpowered or worthless in the book's context. "Scary monsters ought to have Terror" is obvious and not especially useful information, much like "Geniuses ought to have high IQ." I wouldn't use the word "ignored" for Terror, given that Horror mentions it alongside Affliction (which does need extra rules and examples) on p. 12, calls it out for the Fear and Madness powers on pp. 31-32, and assigns it to over a dozen monsters (from giant animals on p. 65 to demons on pp. 95-97). In effect, Terror gets lots of examples, which is what it actually needs rather than new rules.

[Kromm]

As for Fearfulness . . . Like Terror, this simply works as advertised. No notes are needed, really (whereas Fearlessness and Unfazeable need a few words on how they break the mood of some kinds of horror). Sanity-Blasting Fright Checks use the same modifiers as other kinds; the difference is that they cause scarier effects when failed, and that Unfazeable gives +8 rather than full immunity. These differences are best discussed where they are – i.e., under Stress and Derangement (pp. 141-142) and Unfazeable (p. 19).

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Kromm

"Scary monsters ought to have Terror" is obvious and not especially useful information, much like "Geniuses ought to have high IQ." I wouldn't use the word "ignored" for Terror, given that Horror mentions it alongside Affliction (which does need extra rules and examples) on p. 12, calls it out for the Fear and Madness powers on pp. 31-32, and assigns it to over a dozen monsters (from giant animals on p. 65 to demons on pp. 95-97). In effect, Terror gets lots of examples, which is what it actually needs rather than new rules.

Thanks for the clarification! And what do you think about Terror causing Sanity-Blasting Fright Checks? It sure seems like an enhancement on its face, but I suddenly wonder if maybe it is just a feature :?

[David Johnston2]

I find Terror almost redundant in a horror campaign where everyone will be freaking out about everything anyway. I'd only bother to give it to the inexplicably frightening characters like The Girl With The Hungry Eyes.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Kromm

As for Fearfulness . . . Like Terror, this simply works as advertised. No notes are needed, really (whereas Fearlessness and Unfazeable need a few words on how they break the mood of some kinds of horror). Sanity-Blasting Fright Checks use the same modifiers as other kinds; the difference is that they cause scarier effects when failed, and that Unfazeable gives +8 rather than full immunity. These differences are best discussed where they are – i.e., under Stress and Derangement (pp. 141-142) and Unfazeable (p. 19).

That all makes sense to me. Perhaps "ignored" was the wrong word. But I'd have liked to see a modifier given for Terror that let it create Sanity-Blasting Fright Checks.

Also, as far as Fearlessness, normally any more than 7 levels [14] (+7 to Fright Checks) is not cost effective compared to Unfazeable. But if Fearlessness works normally vs Sanity-Blasting Fright Checks (while Unfazeable only gives +8), then buying Fearlessness up to 9+ levels makes sense. Unless the (unwritten) intent is that the maximum bonus from either is +8 (in other words, Fearlessness 10 could only give +8 vs. Sanity-Blasting, but +10 vs normal Checks). Is that the intent? And what would make Unfazeable work as Immunity to Sanity-Blasting Fright Checks? Cosmic +50%?

[Kromm]

There's no cap on Fearlessness bonuses; we'd have noted that. There's often not much point to high levels, given automatic failure on 14+, unless you face lots of penalties or have special perks . . . but there's no restriction against such things. As for Sanity-Blasting effects, I'd say that's a classic Cosmic situation: +100% for the nasty lingering effects on Terror (not that anything with such Terror would be especially appropriate as a point-built PC or NPC Ally for a PC), with +50% needed on Unfazeable to get immunity.