Fighting machine with IQ=8 and Per=7?

[sir_pudding]

I never see PCs buy down Per or Will below 10 and seldom see it bought down at all. I haven't even done anything to make them regret it; players know that failing a Perception or a Will roll can be even more lethal ultimately than missing a dodge roll.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I don't see how any of that isn't RAW, and it's very realistic.

It is not RAW because a roll of 17 or 18 is always a failure. So even for a character with Per 20, the player should have to roll... It's not up to him. And because the GM “should not require rolls for utterly trivial tasks”.

Of course, your rule is realistic! But it is not how GURPS works...

I feel very pretentious (and uncomfortable) to write that, because you know the rules far much better than I do, and because your posts are usually very bright... but I still have to do it...

In reality, driving into town is dangerous. A lot of people die while doing it. But, in GURPS rules, someone who just have his driving license (20-30 hours of training, in France), that is a character who just has the default skill level, doesn't have any roll to do when driving into town. His basic skill is still much lower than 7!

So, even if your rule is realistic, why would a Per 7 character have to make a roll to notice something in plain sight, while a Driving 5 character could risk his life into town without the least chance of having the smallest problem?

As I tried to wrote it above, I do agree with you for any situation where rules specify that a die roll is required (ambushes, foes drawing their weapon discreetly, using stealth or camouflage, trying to attack in the back, etc.). In a combat, there are a lot of situations like that and, so, even in my games, the Per 7 fighting machine would have a lot of problems.

But if the foe is attacking in plain sight, no roll is required. Even in a combat situation. Noticing that foe is not harder than changing posture, running, stepping forward or backward, readying a weapon... None of these actions requires a dice roll – even if all of them could fail in reality.

So why requiring a roll for noticing a foe attacking in plain sight?

[Verjigorm]

I've generally countered low perception by requiring perception rolls in combat to notice important things. Like who is doing what and where enemy attacks are coming from. I also require Per checks before defenses against ranged attacks. If you can't see someone pointing a gun or bow at you, you can't reliably defend against it.

[Mercator]

Originally Posted by Icelander

If you want to get very realistic, use the 'Situational Awareness' rules from the upcoming GURPS Tactical Shooting. Yes, they were written for gunfights, but they can be used as is for any kind of battle. This will make having low Per for a warrior as stupid as it is in real life.

Until TS comes out, you could adapt the rules for OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide and Act) loops in GURPS SWAT, which make Per vital to any fighter.

In general, lack of peripheral vision (low Per) and situational awareness (low IQ) will get a fighter killed very quickly, concealed enemies or not. The PC the OP is talking about will be very good at dealing blows at a single target in front of him until it stops moving, but the moment the fight deviates from that one scenario, he'll be overwhelmed.

I suspect he'd make very good hired muscle, if used only for simple tasks (collecting extorsion money, roughing up unexperienced civilians, etc) and properly supervised, unless he has Disads that make it hard to for him to follow orders; but he will not be a good warrior.

M.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I've generally countered low perception by requiring perception rolls in combat to notice important things. Like who is doing what and where enemy attacks are coming from.

Sorry, but it is not fair. It is a double punishment...

Actually, it is a hidden disadvantage: must succeed a control roll before taking part to a combat. It looks like Combat paralysis, without the points back, and with even worse conditions (for this fighting machine, a roll against HT would be far much easier to succeed!).

And what do you name “low perception”? 7 is low, sure, but not very different from 8. And 8 is not very different from 9... Which is not very different from 10... Etc.

Furthermore, with a Per roll required before taking part to a combat, the Combat reflexes advantage is totally negated. As I wrote it above, it would be a better thing to forbid it, and to let the player use his 15 character points elsewhere... To improve his Per, for instance.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I also require Per checks before defenses against ranged attacks. If you can't see someone pointing a gun or bow at you, you can't reliably defend against it.

I do worse. I describe the NPC pointing his gun or bow (if he can see it) and, if the player doesn't tell me: “I dodge”, he can't do it anymore. Once the trigger has been pulled, it is to late to try a defense. The missile speed is faster than human reflexes... Except in heroic games, of course... But I don't play heroic games for the moment.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Mercator

Until TS comes out, you could adapt the rules for OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide and Act) loops in GURPS SWAT, which make Per vital to any fighter.

In general, lack of peripheral vision (low Per) and situational awareness (low IQ) will get a fighter killed very quickly, concealed enemies or not.

I do not agree with “concealed enemies or not”. Yes, a low perception will get a fighter killed very quickly, because most combats involve foes trying to conceal themselves, or what they do, turn around to attack in the back, put traps, etc. So, a high perception is necessary to avoid all these things...

But low perception doesn't mean a lack of peripheral vision. There are disadvantages for vision impairments. Perception is described, in GURPS rules, as “general alertness”. A character with a low per isn't blind nor deaf. It may simply be very inattentive... But as soon as things are done in front of him, he shouldn't have any problem to notice them.

And what GURPS name “intelligence” is not necessary for combats. It can help a lot (to make a good plan, for instance; see Strategy and Tactics). But if IQ was necessary, human would be much better fighters than tigers. Which is wrong, of course: don't try to fight against them with equal weapons!

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gollum

And what GURPS name “intelligence” is not necessary for combats. It can help a lot (to make a good plan, for instance; see Strategy and Tactics). But if IQ was necessary, human would be much better fighters than tigers. Which is wrong, of course: don't try to fight against them with equal weapons!

As it happens, humans are much better fighters than tigers. There isn't any contest.

Human IQ allows them to invent and build firearms. Firearms kill tigers. Even before the invention of firearms, humans could use other weapons as well as cooperation to hunt tigers for fun.

The fact that a tiger is at an advantage if you remove the benefits of human intelligence is not evidence of anything in particular. That's like saying that superior strength and speed is not important in a fight and citing the fact that a slower and weaker person can easily kill someone fast and strong if he happens to be hogtied.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gollum

So why requiring a roll for noticing a foe attacking in plain sight?

Because combat is confusing and because the human body responds to adrenaline by focusing on the immediate threat and suffering tunnel vision with regards to other potential dangers.

In short, because it's realistic.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Gollum

But low perception doesn't mean a lack of peripheral vision. There are disadvantages for vision impairments. Perception is described, in GURPS rules, as “general alertness”. A character with a low per isn't blind nor deaf. It may simply be very inattentive... But as soon as things are done in front of him, he shouldn't have any problem to notice them.

There's more involved in "perception" than "Your sensors get the important thing in their field of perception".

Your brain has to interpret the signals getting to it, identify something as "important" and flag it for further attention. In a combat situation, your brain automatically deprioritizes MANY different things as "not trying to kill me right now, doesn't matter" so you don't waste brain-time on trying to process them - this means you've got as many resources available as possible to focus on the immediate threat.

This is, in general, a pro-survival strategy. The last thing you need in a gunfight is to be distracted by the Calvin Klein advertisement off on the left of your field of view, even if normally you would find it very entertaining. Or some fleeing innocent bystander. Or a cat hiding under a car. Or a falling leaf, blowing McDonalds bag, whatever.

However it does mean that sometimes people miss the completely obvious because they were too focused on something else. The classic psychology experiment is to show people a video of a basket ball game and get them to count the number of times the players pass the ball back and forth (they get $5 if they get it right). At the end of the video, the experimenter then asks the subjects if they noticed anything odd about the game. The subjects say no, or perhaps comment on the amount of passing going on. Very very very few people ever noticed the guy in the gorilla suit who comes out, waves at the camera, does a little jig in the MIDDLE OF THE GAME AREA, and then walks out again.

Apparently it takes $5 to reliably distract almost everyone, but the effect still works without a reward at all on about 50% of the test subjects.

Linky to a random article about the idea.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Because combat is confusing and because the human body responds to adrenaline by focusing on the immediate threat and suffering tunnel vision with regards to other potential dangers.

In short, because it's realistic.

Yes. This is a good argument.

But the complete question that I wrote in many post is:

Why requiring a roll to notice someone in plain sight for characters with low perception only? Why not requiring a roll for someone driving into town with a much more low basic level in his skill? And why not requiring a roll for stepping forward or backward, running, readying a weapon, or doing all these little things that succeed automatically in GURPS, but still fail from time to time in reality (especially under stress).