Why evaluate

[Hastur]

Ubuktu has a move 9 and a pike, he stands 12 yards from his opponent and evaluates him. His opponent is armed with an ax and moves 5 yards forward on his turn. Ungbuktu uses an all out attack; feint and attack on his opponent. Good use of evaluate.

Milquart is known for his technique- hand grab parry. Ungbuktu decides that instead of attacking normally he will evaluate first and feint then deceptive attack.
good use of evaluate, though perhaps 2 feints would work better.

Milquart uses wait- and waits for ungbuktu to attack
Ungbuktu evaluates instead. Good use of evaluate

Ungbuktu picks up a flamethrower with 1 shot left, it is a jet with reach 40 yards. he can evaluate all day long before a swordsman reaches him. same applies for a dragons daily breath weapon maybe.

Ok so maybe evaluate is limited. how about some perks to improve them
C-C-Combo Breaker: you may evaluate while using the wait maneuvre.
Awareness: You may evaluate at a range of your Per. in yards

[Edges]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The statistical inferiority of Evaluate + Attack compared with Attack + Attack (hoping for a critical hit) for the vast majority of skill levels is the reason I increased the attack bonus from Evaluate in my campaigns from +1/+2/+3 to +2/+4/+6.

The other effects from MA remain unchanged.

How has your house rule played? Have you seen any problems come of it? Often I find that the existence of Evaluate means that many fights start with a "free" +3. Do many of the fights in your games start with a +6?

I also implemented a house rule to beef-up Evaluate. I used +2/+3/+4 modeled after Aim and assuming most people had a "melee acc" of 2. Do you feel that this "fix" is still underpowered? I considered offering increased "melee acc" as an advantage (maybe 2pt/lv?...maybe 3 levels max?) but never implemented it.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Edges

How has your house rule played? Have you seen any problems come of it? Often I find that the existence of Evaluate means that many fights start with a "free" +3. Do many of the fights in your games start with a +6?

I've not seen any problems so far. It does make Evaluate more attractive for those who play characters for whom it is appropriate, is all.

Sir 'Brash' Mickey Carragher, the young and newly-knighted warrior in my fantasy campaign, rarely stops to Evaluate at all. His fights start with a Heroic Charge Move and Attack, generally.

Murlak Solstice, the travelling merchant (who is not roguish at all, no sirree), will tend to start fights with Evaluate, 'tis true. But on the other hand, he tends not to tell anyone that there is a fight going on until it is already over, and attacking from total or partial suprise ought to be lethal.

Large scale battles tend to take long enough to make the first turn almost irrelevant, and, in any event, will usually start with an exchange of ranged attacks.

In duels, both combatants have the option of starting off with an Evaluate. Since the bonus is nearly invariably converted to Deceptive Attack, the offensive and defence neatly cancel each other out. There is an interesting tactical interplay in the fact that an Evaluating foe may catch a character who loses his patience and Attacks at a disadvantage.

This results in natural lulls, which is good.

I still rarely see players choosing to Evaluate during a battle, but that's mostly because they are usually outnumbered and must rely on speed and violence of action to win.

If and when they face skilled fencers instead of many soldiers, this could change.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Then take the perk to make them cumulative.

What Perk?

[Maz]

I have experience from both adventure games and Arena-games, both as a player and a a GM. And it tells me that Evaluate is very good in duels, but not at all worth it in typical "adventure game-combats".

Although you really need all the stuff in MA to make it really good.

Other situations where Evaluate is better than Many attacks:
-Opponent has Counter Attack.
-You have an unbalanced weapon or one that becomes unready.
-You have to "Move and Attack" (with heroic charge) to be able to attack (if you opponent is faster/have more reach than you).
-Each attack is at a risk (such as requiring a balance check).
-Opponent has a weapon that will damage your weapon if he parries.
-You are unarmed and the opponent is not, or he is using aggressive parry.
-Your opponent is fund of Judo throws or follow up Arm locks.

But IMO the best part is clearly the fact that it is both an offensive bonus and a defensive bonus (to counter deceptive attack and feints).

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Þorkell

What Perk?

Kromm suggested several Evaluate-related perks here, including the aforementioned one to let Telegraphic Attacks and Evaluates stack. I don't think that one in particular has gone into any official supplements, but I used the Rolling Stone perk in a Pyramid article with Kromm's permission, so I doubt he now thinks of them as terrible ideas.

[Pmandrekar]

Here's an option for Evaluate. The guards have been instructed to keep their halberds at the ready, and to kill anyone not wearing a shoe on their right foot.

Not knowing that these guards have it in for him, a character without a shoe on their right foot walks right up to the guards to ask for directions. As this young hero talks, the guards are sizing this man up (within fighting range) for the eventual strike.

You never know the circumstances. One character might be asking directions, and the others *know* that they are in a combat situation, but haven't yet played their hand openly.

-P.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Pmandrekar

You never know the circumstances. One character might be asking directions, and the others *know* that they are in a combat situation, but haven't yet played their hand openly.

-P.

Evaluate is a combat manoeuvre and Kromm has before stated that all Manoeuvres are obvious.

So if the guards are taking evaluation manoeuvres the person asking for direction will see that they are combat ready and alert, about to strike at a moments notice.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Maz

Evaluate is a combat manoeuvre and Kromm has before stated that all Manoeuvres are obvious.

So if the guards are taking evaluation manoeuvres the person asking for direction will see that they are combat ready and alert, about to strike at a moments notice.

Apposed to taking Concentration to use the Observation Skill

[LordHelmet]

Originally Posted by Icelander

If we want to emulate anything even close to many real world fighting styles, we need to somehow account for lulls.

Very true.

But I think there is a possibility to kill two birds with one stone.
This thread has made it clear that evaluate is not a very strong maneuver in most circumstances.
The other weird rule is fatigue cost for fighting a battle (B426). It is strange that the FP costs for fighting are paied at the end of battle and not continually during battle as this is the case for other fatigueing exercises like hiking running or swimming.

If the fighter had to pay FP according to the rules for every 10 seconds he fights offensively (lets say all maneuvers involving any kind of attack), it would be reasonable to take a lull every now and than. During that lull evaluate would be a very useful maneuver.