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06-23-2014, 10:08 AM
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#1 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
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GURPS Overhaul - Combat Skills, take 2
As this is such a significant update to my old Combat Skills Overhaul, I've opted to make it into its own thread (and am requesting any mods to please close down the old one). This is divided into four posts - this first one is simply an introduction. We get into the main meat in the second post, dealing with the main skills and how to modify them. The next post plays around with just how Blocks and Parries function. We finish up with some odds and ends in post #4 - an alternative to the Basic Set's ST-based damage progression, a new way to handle the concept of blunt trauma and armor, some thoughts on Hurting Yourself (and your weapon), and finally some advice on how to deal with Trained ST for ranged skills.
Questions and comments are welcome (although I suggest any continuation of the Staff Grip vs Defensive Grip discussion from the previous thread be taken to its own thread, as that's more a discussion of how the Staff skill works in GURPS RAW), as always. |
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06-23-2014, 10:09 AM
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#2 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: GURPS Overhaul - Combat Skills, take 2
To start, we'll look at the new list of base skills, with the base defaults (that is, what the skill defaults from) listed:
All skills default from each other at -8, although defaulting from easier skills to harder ones also imposes a penalty equal to the difference in difficulty (Flail defaults from Brawling at -10, for example). All skills use Average progression for Trained ST, and characters with Weapon Master are one class higher. For reference, all progressions are -1 ST at DX, -2 ST at DX-1 and lower. Slow is -1 at DX+1, +0 at DX+2, +1 at DX+4, and +1 for every +3 to skill thereafter. Average is +1 better at each of these points, Fast is +2, and Very Fast (Fast skill + Weapon Master) is +3. Optionally, ignore modified ST for purposes of damage (a character with ST 12 and TST 15 bases damage on ST 12), but gain +1 damage per +1 ST (this is the same effect for Swing damage, but gives double effect to Thrust). Talents and the like function as trained skill for purposes of Trained ST but not defaults - a character with Axe at DX+7 and 3 levels of a Talent that includes Axe would have TST based on Axe being at DX+10 (thus +4 TST) but Flail would only be at DX+3 (unless it were also included in the Talent). Only pay full price for the most expensive combat skill the character has - all others are either half price or [2] per +1 from default, whichever is cheaper. Techniques are still skill-specific. Skills can be further modified, which changes their difficulty. Optionally, this can change difficulty beyond the limits from the Basic Set - just keep in mind that every +/-1 to difficulty is -/+1 to skill for a given CP investment. Modifications fall into two categories - Single Skill and All Skill. Single Skill only modify that one skill and has no effect on those that default from it. All Skill modify every skill the character has - if you want any skills that don't follow that trend, you'll need to purchase them seperately (paying full price). To modify a skill purchased at half price or from default, every +1 to difficulty is -1 to skill. Following are some modifications available:
The above are meant to be able to recreate most of the skills from the Basic Set, although some are at a different difficulty level. Below are some worked examples of possible variants, including many of those missing from above:
Last edited by Varyon; 08-13-2014 at 08:23 AM. |
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06-23-2014, 10:10 AM
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#3 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: GURPS Overhaul - Combat Skills, take 2
Our next modification is dealing with how Blocks/Parries work. We'll start with shields, based on this Krommpost. Shields provide Cover (-2 to enemy attacks) to the shield hand and arm and a number of additonal hit locations equal to DB (by default, these are Torso, then Neck, then one Leg); the character sets these at the beginning of each turn, and all three must be adjacent to each other. The character can opt to sacrifice one hit location to protect another more fully - each such sacrifice gives the enemy an additional -1 to hit. Shield DB applies normally to Blocks and Parries with that shield, but is halved (round down) for any other defense. Shields have the option to Parry, at -1 relative to a Block - the character determines which defense to use when allocating protected hit locations, which results in the shield protecting one fewer location. The benefit of Parrying with a shield comes later.
Getting complicated, we deal with exactly what a Parry means. A fully successful Parry (MoS 3+) results in the attacking weapon being swept out of line with minimal contact. A Parry in which the base +3 makes a difference (MoS 0-2) results in the attacking weapon glancing off the weapon. A Parry that just barely fails (MoF 1) results in the weapon being struck full-on. For minimal contact and glances, typically only swung weapons have any effect. Minimal contact results in 1/5th damage and multiplying any DR by 5, a glance results in 1/2 damage and multiplying any DR by 2. A thrusting weapon typically doesn't have the points of contact necessary to cause any real damage, although the GM can treat minimal contact as 1/10th damage and anti-armor performance, and treat glances as 1/5th. If the weapon is struck full-on, it takes damage normally, as though it were targeted. In either case, if Parrying unarmed, the character's limb is the "parrying weapon." To further complicate things, there are some special situations to keep in mind. A character can opt for minimum contact between the attacking weapon and his own. This results in -2 to Parry, but a glance only occurs with MoF 1 and full-on contact will not occur. This can be useful when parrying bare-handed! Contrariwise, a character can opt to "shield" himself with his weapon, gaining +1 to Parry. MoS 2+ is a glance (minimum contact is not an option), while anything down to MoF 1 is full-on contact. Note this is the default for a Block! Coming back to shields, Blocks result in a glance with MoS of (DB+3) and higher, and are full-on contact otherwise (down to MoS 0, after which point the character is hit). If Parrying with a shield, use the above rules for Parrying to determine degree of contact, with the modification that all thresholds have DB-1 added to them. As an example, let's look at a +2 DB shield. Block: MoS 5+ is glance, MoS 0-4 is full-on contact, MoF 1+ means character is hit Normal Parry: MoS 4+ is minimal contact, MoS 1-3 is glance, MoS 0 and MoF 1 is full-on contact, MoF 2+ is a hit Minimal Contact Parry: -2 defense; MoS 1+ is minimal contact, MoS 0 and MoF 1 are glances, MoF 2+ is a hit Shielding Parry: As Block I should also note here that the bonus from using a Staff Grip or Defensive Grip functions just like a Parrying shield's DB. Aggressive Parry: These must be normal Parries - minimal contact and shielding Parries cannot be aggressive and must rely on Hurting Yourself (see next post) to cause damage. Aggressive Parry follows the normal rules from Martial Arts (p65) for unarmed defenses. When armed, a normal Parry inflicts damage as per Aggressive Parry, and a true armed Aggressive Parry (suffering -1 to Parry) gets +2 to damage; simply Parrying is sufficient to cause this damage (no need for a follow-up skill roll). A minimal contact Parry only inflicts a glance, but the defender can opt to make it into a glancing Parry to cause full damage. For damage, use any one (defender's choice) of the weapon's damage modifiers. DB: Unless using a Block or Parry with a Shield, ignore DB for your initial defense. If your character is struck, but would not have been with DB in play, the shield is hit instead. Parrying Heavy Weapons: Minimal contact means the attacking weapon counts as having 1/3rd its normal weight for purposes of breakage, while a glance is instead 2/3rds. A full-on hit uses the weapon's full weight. However, a heavy weapon has a very good chance of simply pushing a lighter one out of its way. If the attacking weapon weighs 2x (or more) as much as the parrying weapon (after adjusting for glancing, if appropriate), a Quick Contest of ST is undertaken between the two characters. The defender gets an automatic +4 to this Quick Contest, and it is further modified as follows: Footwork (defender): -2 to defender Swing (attacker): +2 to attacker Two hands on the weapon (either): +2; note this can apply to either character Block (defender): +2; opting for a Shielding Parry also qualifies here Ties go to the defender. If the defender wins, the Parry is successful, his weapon takes damage normally, and breakage is checked for (if appropriate). If the attacker wins, the defender's weapon takes damage normally and the attacker chooses between scoring a glance on the defender or knocking the defender's weapon out-of-line (requires a Ready to recover). If the attacker wins by 5+, his choice is between scoring a glance and knocking the defender's weapon out-of-line (optionally by driving the defender's weapon into him - treat as a glance from the attacker's weapon, but using the defender's damage type), or scoring a normal hit. If the attacker wins by 10+, he scores a normal hit and also knocks the defender's weapon out-of-line by driving it into him scoring an additional glance for free! Next up, we come to some optional rules to increase the chances of the hands/arms being struck in a failed Parry. If a Parry only just fails to result in the weapon being struck (typically, MoF 2), roll 1d. On a 1 or 2, the defending arm is hit (if defending with both arms, roll randomly). Optionally, you may make another 1d roll to determine if the hand is hit (on a 1). As another option, allow both players involved in such an arm/hand hit to dictate if they'd rather the original target be hit instead. This requires an attack or defense (depending on character) reroll to change (players can negate each other's choice if desired). That's it to this rule... well, almost. There's one more thing to look at: Weapon Hilts: Hilts have no direct effect on a weapon's Parry score. However, on any full-contact Parry, roll 1d. On a 1 or 2, resolve the attack as a glance on both the parrying weapon and the parrying character's hand. A typical hilt grants DR 4 to the parrying character's hand (undersized or wooden hilts grant DR 2-3, basket hilts grant DR 6). Optionally, if the above roll was a 1, the damage is applied to the character's fingers! A Staff Grip requires freedom of hand movement for its full effect. If a spear or polearm has a hilt added, it protects the fingers as normal but reduces the bonus for using a Staff Grip by 1. Note this makes Staff Grip useless for hilted polearms! |
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06-23-2014, 10:10 AM
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#4 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: GURPS Overhaul - Combat Skills, take 2
Finally, we come to some even-more-optional bits. First up is an alternative to the Basic Set's damage table. Note this rule was originally from Douglas Cole, although I've made some modifications (namely, how adds from weapons and the like influence damage). The idea of 1d*n+m is from lwcamp. What can I say, I'm an artist - I steal. After that we've got a different way to handle blunt trauma, rules for weapons (including your fists) taking damage when attacking, and finally some guidelines for ranged weapon skills.
The mechanics are relatively simple - for thrust damage, divide ST by 10, while for swing damage, divide by 5. This is how many dice of damage you deal with an attack. This will give you damage in the form of n.pd. Convert this to 1d*n+m, where m is determined as follows: p<0.15, m=0; 0.15<p<0.5, m=1; 0.5<p<0.7, m=2; 0.7<p<0.9, +1 to n and m=-1; 0.9<p, +1 to n and m=0. Thus, 1.3d becomes 1d+1, 2.1d becomes 1d*2, 9.87d becomes 1d*10-1, and so forth. If n=0 and p<0.7, increase n by 1 and subtract 4 from m (0.5d is 1d-2). The above scale is cinematic. A more realistic one is to use a divisor of 20 for thrust, 10 for swing (or use the above and double the DR granted by armor if you prefer higher lethality than the alternate divisors would give). If you'd like to more closely match Basic Set, a divisor of 15 for thrust and 7 for swing will come close. Any bonuses or penalties from high skill (if using damage bonuses in lieu of ST bonuses) or weapons correspond to a 20% difference for thrusts, 10% for swings (as thrusts are half of swing damage, this works out to the same bonus for each). For simplicity, when recording your character's basic damage, also note the change that results from each +/-1 to damage. If using the cinematic scale, this will be equal to ST/50 (realistic drops this to ST/100, Basic Set is ST/70). For example, the ST 16 Knight in my DF testbed campaign would record his basic damage as 1.6d/3.2d (+0.32 per +1). Blunt Trauma: Rather than a weapon simply having all of its damage as cutting, piercing, or impaling, weapons are instead treated as being partially (often primarily) crushing, with the additional damage type as a bonus. If the weapon manages to completely bypass armor (see below), all damage is treated as being equal to the bonus type. If the weapon fails to completely bypass armor, it loses the bonus damage and becomes crushing. In general, sharp impact weapons, such as axes and most impaling weapons, use their normal damage, but +1 of it is cutting or impaling (the rest is crushing). Weapons that are more slicing, such as a swung sword or a Tip Slash, have +2 of their damage as cutting. Any damage modifiers due to quality apply to the bonus damage, not the initial damage. Typically, blunt weapons will need to have their damage downgraded - a bokken wielded one-handed should be sw-1 cr, thr cr, to keep it in line with a katana wielded in the same manner (which would be sw-1 cr +2 cut, thr cr +1 imp). For arrows and bullets, things are a bit more complicated, as such weapons rely primarily on their ability to penetrate to cause damage. As a general rule-of-thumb, 1/3rd of the damage of such weapons is crushing, the rest is impaling or piercing (optionally, each +/-1 to size category changes this by half a step on the SSR table - a pi+ weapon would be 1/2.5 crushing, a pi++ or imp would be 1/2). For armor, it protects totally against all forms of damage within 0.7xDR (round normally), at which point it fails to protect against crushing damage. Additionally, weapons with bonus damage must completely bypass armor in order for the bonus to come into play (although the bonus does add to the attempt). Impaling and piercing attacks completely bypass armor beyond DR, while cutting attacks completely bypass armor beyond 2xDR. Burning, Toxic, and Corrosion treat armor normally. The above assumes armor without split DR; if armor has split DR, use whatever is listed there or the above, whichever is worse (so fine mail still has DR 2 against crushing, not the DR 3 most DR 4 armor would have). Hurting Yourself: Realistically, damage isn't a one-way street - a stone axe may shatter upon striking thick metal plate, you can break your hand trying to break rocks, and so forth. Of course, striking something softer than your weapon isn't likely to cause any damage to it. This optional rule works as follows. First, determine the materials the weapon and target are made of. If the weapon is of a harder material than the target (follow the general trend of flesh<bone<stone<metal; wood is comparable to bone, metal-shod wood and soft metals to stone), there is no chance of damage. If they are equal or the weapon is weaker, the weapon must make an HT roll - on a failure, it takes damage equal to 1/2 its own crushing damage, although penetrating impaling weapons only take 1/4 this value. Damage is limited to the cover DR of the target for cutting and crushing attacks, half this for impaling. If the weapon suffers a critical failure on its HT roll, double both the damage taken and the cap. For unarmed strikes and the like, untrained fighters treat their strikes as flesh, those with skill at DX+1 or better treat them as bone. In a cinematic campaign, skill at DX+4 or better upgrades to stone, and Trained By A Master upgrades to metal and grants the character DR 4 for purposes of Hurting Yourself. These effects also apply when the character's limbs are struck due to an unarmed parry or a foe's Aggressive Parry. The weapon still causes damage normally (a shattering stone axe will cause just as much damage as one that stayed whole; this isn't strictly realistic, but makes things a bit easier and more balanced). Ranged skills: There are two general types of ranged combat skills - thrown weapons (including slings and atlatls, which are just throwing assists) and projectile weapons. Thrown weapons probably don't benefit from the same sort of defaults as melee, so simply use the rules from the Basic Set for those, with the addition of Trained ST (most of them are Average Progression, although Sling and Throwing Art are probably Fast). For projectile weapons, use Average Progression again. This has its normal effects for bows and crossbows, but for firearms and similar Trained ST doesn't apply to damage (it will apply when determining if the character is sufficiently strong to wield the weapon, or when resisting disarm attempts and Beats). |
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06-23-2014, 02:07 PM
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#5 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: GURPS Overhaul - Combat Skills, take 2
One thing I failed to note above - the rules for blunt trauma from projectiles (bullets and arrows) are actually based on the collision rules from GULLIVER. I worked out the collision damage of 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, and .50 BMG rounds. The first two were right around 1/3rd the damage values of the weapons from High Tech, the last was around 2/5th. I assumed this was the generic trend (because I didn't feel like looking up even more data and crunching it) and went with it.
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08-05-2014, 08:36 PM
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#6 |
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Brazil
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Re: GURPS Overhaul - Combat Skills, take 2
I have a doubt with your blunt trauma rules, Varyon. Let's ignore firearms for the moment.
From what I understood, if the weapon damage (including cutting/piercing bonuses) is smaller then 0.7*DR, the damage is completly stopped. If it's between 0.7*DR to DR, the crushing part of the damage affects the subject. What I'm not clear is that if this crushing part would be affected or not by the DR. From the way it's written, it leads me to think it's not, which would perhaps be too deadly? Only that it can't be the other way around, because the crushing damage is, per force, smaller then DR and thus DR would fully protect against it. Unless you treat the armor as having 0.7*DR against crushing damage, is that it? Then, if the damage is beyond 1*DR (or 2*DR for cutting), the damage is applied as cutting or piercing. That would be with or without DR protecting? Let's take an example to help. Suppose a DR 10 armor, to make the calulations easy. I hit it with a sword for 10 cutting damage, 8 or which are crushing. Does the person wearing it take 8 damage? 0 damage because 8 is smaller then the DR 10? Or does the armor have DR 7 against crushing and thus the person takes 1 point of blunt trauma? I believe the third is correct, am I right? Second example is same guy with DR 10 taking a spear thrust for 15 damage points. of which 12 are crushing. He gets 5 points of damage, and then multiply these x2 for 10 points of injury? Or the full 15 points? I believe the first case (otherwise it's too deadly), but I want to make sure. |
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08-06-2014, 07:54 AM
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#7 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: GURPS Overhaul - Combat Skills, take 2
Sounds like you've got the right of it. Armor has 70% of its DR against crushing. The way it works out, all armor basically has a 3-way split DR - something that's nominally DR 10 would be DR 7 against crushing, DR 20-ish against cutting (if you get through it drops back down to DR 10), and DR 10 against everything else.
So, let's take a sword up against that DR 10. As noted above, 1 point of its thrusting damage is from impaling, and 2 points of its swing damage are from cutting. A 9 damage thrust doesn't beat DR 10, so it becomes 8 crushing against DR 7, for 1 penetrating crushing damage and 1 HP of injury. A 12 damage thrust does beat DR 10, so you've got 2 penetrating impaling damage for 4 HP injury. A 15 damage swing doesn't beat DR 20, so it becomes 13 crushing against DR 7, for 6 penetrating crushing damage and 6 HP of injury. A 24 damage swing does beat DR 20, so it is 24 cutting damage against DR 10, for 14 penetrating cutting damage and 21 HP of injury. |
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08-06-2014, 12:35 PM
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#8 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Brazil
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Re: GURPS Overhaul - Combat Skills, take 2
You know what? That's a very, very good system, IMO. I haven't considered the implications for stuff like gun penetration in body armor, or vehicular combat, but for human scale weaponry, this sounds as good as we will likely get.
I would just add that in this system it wouldn't be out of place for humans to have DR 1 versus crush only. Also, for swords in particular, they should have a larger cutting modifier and a smaller crushing component. Swords are quite light and most of the weight is near the handle. They make VERY poor whacking implements. If your armor prevents the edge to cutting your flesh, you would probably be safe from significant harm. |
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08-13-2014, 08:33 AM
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#9 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: GURPS Overhaul - Combat Skills, take 2
I've made some slight modifications to post #2. First off, I had failed to include what Axe defaulted from. Secondly, I've modified Fast Progression to be only a +1 to difficulty, as otherwise it's a horrible choice - a +2 to difficulty works out to be [8] to get back to the same level, but that only gives a +1 to damage - Striking ST (Single Skill) is probably worth around [3], and this is one level of that for swing, two levels for thrust, so somewhere between [4] and [5] is appropriate; [4] works for me.
I debated having Weapon Master give +2 to progression (rather than +1), and may still do so. There's been a rumor for some time of a full Weapon Master breakdown being published, so I'd prefer to wait for that to see what each of the components (access to cinematic skills, reduced Rapid Strike penalties, reduced Cumulative Parries penalties, and damage bonus) is currently worth before deciding. |
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| Tags |
| house rules, overhaul, parrying heavy weapons |
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