Question on ritual magic and voodoo

[Lameth]

I am running a modern sercet magic game. In my world I have a encompassing ritual magic (path/book magic system) for "witchcraft" which basically covers The craft to Wicca to other types like Hecate witches, dark witches of Demons, and the Goddess. Basically it depends on what your background is, accompanying skill and the type of witchcraft you use, along with your paths. my question is should this also cover things like Haitian Vodou and Louisiana Vodoun, saintaria, or hoodoo ? Yes each would have various path and cultural skills and altered beliefs. Or should voodoo and the rest be under another ritual magic?

Thx

[Refplace]

Path/Book is really suited to Voodoo and any secret or spirit magic IMHO.
The main limitation is Path/Book has no actual spell design system.
I made one though and it is based on adapting rules already in play so its doable.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Lameth

In my world I have a encompassing ritual magic (path/book magic system) for "witchcraft" which basically covers The craft to Wicca to other types like Hecate witches, dark witches of Demons, and the Goddess. Basically it depends on what your background is, accompanying skill and the type of witchcraft you use, along with your paths. My question is should this also cover things like Haitian Vodou and Louisiana Vodoun, saintaria, or hoodoo? Yes each would have various path and cultural skills and altered beliefs. Or should voodoo and the rest be under another ritual magic?

You aren't being especially clear here. I think you're asking if witchcraft and voodoo should use the same core Ritual Magic skill? The answer to that is basically up to you, and your ideas about what's important in the practice of ritual magic. A few examples:

If what's important is the will of the magic-worker and how it is focussed, then the system of rituals is a means of doing that. You'd only have one core Ritual Magic skill. Magicians from different traditions would use different languages, actions, tools and symbols, and would have to overcome familiarity penalties before they could collaborate in a ritual.

On the other hand, if what's important is the significance to the spirits of words, languages, particular trappings and dances, and so on, and magic is a question of re-enacting the actions of legendary heroes, then there would be lots of Ritual Magic skills, one per tradition. They might have mutual defaults, but at pretty steep penalties, in the range -6 to -10.

If there is some underlying mechanism of magic in the universe that doesn't arise from culture, like the Hermetic decans, or the Cycle in Steven Brust's novels, then ritual magic skills will be about using the mechanisms of magic skilfully. There may well be several skills, for different cultures, but they'd have mutual defaults at useful levels, in the range -1 to -4.

GURPS can cope with any of these models, and more. Deciding on one will have implications for the metaphysics of your setting, and is worth thinking about carefully.

[Lameth]

Originally Posted by johndallman

You aren't being especially clear here. I think you're asking if witchcraft and voodoo should use the same core Ritual Magic skill? The answer to that is basically up to you, and your ideas about what's important in the practice of ritual magic. A few examples:

If what's important is the will of the magic-worker and how it is focussed, then the system of rituals is a means of doing that. You'd only have one core Ritual Magic skill. Magicians from different traditions would use different languages, actions, tools and symbols, and would have to overcome familiarity penalties before they could collaborate in a ritual.

On the other hand, if what's important is the significance to the spirits of words, languages, particular trappings and dances, and so on, and magic is a question of re-enacting the actions of legendary heroes, then there would be lots of Ritual Magic skills, one per tradition. They might have mutual defaults, but at pretty steep penalties, in the range -6 to -10.

If there is some underlying mechanism of magic in the universe that doesn't arise from culture, like the Hermetic decans, or the Cycle in Steven Brust's novels, then ritual magic skills will be about using the mechanisms of magic skilfully. There may well be several skills, for different cultures, but they'd have mutual defaults at useful levels, in the range -1 to -4.

GURPS can cope with any of these models, and more. Deciding on one will have implications for the metaphysics of your setting, and is worth thinking about carefully.

Yes that is true. In my Path/Book world I have various Ritual Magic Skills, such as Witchcraft, Sorcery, Heka, and Norse Magic. So basically I guess you are saying is that there is enough similarities with Hoodoo and Witchcraft, depending on the region and PC background, that the two ritual magic skills could default off each other, if you maybe have some prerequisite skills or perks? So If a witch of the Craft raised in New Orleans could attempt a Hoodoo ritual if Hoodoo defaults off of Witchcraft there at a -4, lets say. And then the default of the path itself of the -6 [per the book], then the ritual itself? That could be -10 and more, correct? or am I doing this wrong?

[Lameth]

Originally Posted by johndallman

If what's important is the will of the magic-worker and how it is focused, then the system of rituals is a means of doing that. You'd only have one core Ritual Magic skill. Magicians from different traditions would use different languages, actions, tools and symbols, and would have to overcome familiarity penalties before they could collaborate in a ritual.

with this example, I have a question. If its all one Ritual Magic skill, and each tradition is basically made up of different tools, foci, beliefs, ext., how does it work for the paths? Are you saying that a Norse Runist can attempt a path that a Witch has? How do you make different cultural and mythological belief systems of magic with one Ritual Magic skill and a bunch of paths that anyone can learn?

Yes on my world its a combination of beings of magic that can be called on, to good old fashion Magic that can be called on by the users will, focused through focuses, tools, languages, and belief systems that color the magic and bring it into the world. But the belief systems and encompassing theories of their magic is summed up in their Ritual Magic skill that goes with their tradition, correct? And then each tradition has its own paths. BUT some paths are simply called different names in different tradition and then with a change of the tools and focuses that are used, but the overall spell itself is sort of the same except for thematics.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Lameth

Yes that is true. In my Path/Book world I have various Ritual Magic Skills, such as Witchcraft, Sorcery, Heka, and Norse Magic. So basically I guess you are saying is that there is enough similarities with Hoodoo and Witchcraft, depending on the region and PC background, that the two ritual magic skills could default off each other, if you maybe have some prerequisite skills or perks?

I think what he was saying was that there could be enough similarity not that there has to be.
Personally I would say that there would be a default between Voodoo and most Westernized or New Age witchcraft.
Norse magic seems pretty much its own animal and Hekau would have a pretty steep default if any.
I actually charge a UB for learning different Traditions because of the increased flexibility, though I dont ever expect anyone to take them. Your usually better off focusing.

Originally Posted by Lameth

with this example, I have a question. If its all one Ritual Magic skill, and each tradition is basically made up of different tools, foci, beliefs, ext., how does it work for the paths?

I would make them different Paths, though some similar paths may default to each other. That extra cost of buying a different Core skill and different Paths is why a PC learning more than one system is pretty rare.
However all is not lost. Lets say your used to dealing with spirits of one culture but are in a foreign land. The spirits have a different culture and behavior though they may behave the same in a broad metaphysical way.
So you would have a Familiarity penalty for dealing with those new spirits till you figured out their ways and worked with them so they got used to your strange ways as well.

There really is no one true way to do this. It all depends on the setting.

[N.H.Alicia]

Originally Posted by Refplace

The main limitation is Path/Book has no actual spell design system.
I made one though and it is based on adapting rules already in play so its doable.

Please share it.

[Moneval]

Originally Posted by Refplace

The main limitation is Path/Book has no actual spell design system.
I made one though and it is based on adapting rules already in play so its doable.

Originally Posted by N.H.Alicia

Please share it.

Seconded. I would love to see a system for designing path/book spells.

[Refplace]

I might just post it to my blog to get it out there, I would prefer to see it in Pyramid (greater visibility) but its always a tight contest for an issue and there may only be one shot at it for a given article a year.
EDIT: I sent a note asking permission. I want to be sure I dont violate the online policy. So I'm not ignoring either of you.

[ULFGARD]

Yes, it really does seem like the the Path/Book system could benefit from a ritual design system. The effect shaping RPM (a Pyramid article) is the closest we have, and it's not quite right.

I've played in a game years ago, shortly after GURPS Voodoo came out, so that was 3d edition. The GM handled different systems as penalties, and that made a difference when conducting group rituals. What I like about it is that it makes performing the ritual every bit as interesting as combat.