GURPS After the End 1: Wastelanders

[PK]

Originally Posted by scc

OK, what role did Cthulhu etl play in bringing about The End?

None in the first two books, though I'm open to adding a "supernatural apocalypse" book later.

I get the vibe that there are still people around who went to school BtE, most importantly the PCs.

Can I ask you to quote whatever text gave you that impression? Because I put a lot of work into attempting to give the exact opposite impression.

Originally Posted by scc

OK, some are better then others here are the things that get to me the most:
[LIST=1][*]The lack of illitracy as an option

Fair point. This would fit into Chapter 2 easily enough.

[*]The Doc and Techie templates, both of these are the sorts of occupations that require large amounts of book learning

Nah, most learn from apprenticing, parents, trial and error, etc.

[*]The Nomad or anything mention of finding an intact BtE vehicle

Not sure what this means. Rephrase?

[*]The primacy of guns, they would be powerful tools if you have them, but that's unlikely.

Not really. Most of my PCs have cheap TL5 guns. They're too useful to ignore.

[scc]

Originally Posted by PK

Can I ask you to quote whatever text gave you that impression? Because I put a lot of work into attempting to give the exact opposite impression.

It's not a single big thing, but rather lots of little ones. Probably the best example is this from the Tech template: "While most wastelanders have gone low-tech, falling back on swords and push-carts, you refuse to join them in the Dark Ages." That statement is not from someone raised at the background TL4. The amount of skill the characters have is also a bit much, using higher attributes and Talents need dealing with high tech goods would fit in with the setting better.

That said, a cryogenic survivor template could be a good addition.

Originally Posted by PK

Nah, most learn from apprenticing, parents, trial and error, etc.

Maybe I should have said formal systems of education, but the point that they're very skilled in areas I expect there to be little ability to trained people. For the Doc I think a version of Esoteric Medicine covering both versions of Pharmacy, and maybe a few other things, this is someone used to dealing with day to day stuff, but when the PCs loot a medicine cabinet he's not going to be more help then anyone else. For the Tech anything beyond TL4 or very useful to survive should be gained by the Dabbler Perk, exceptions like Mechanic for engine types, but limit them to stationary use most of the time; I could probably go on at length about this sub-point. But the thing I get is you want people coming from communities that normally top out at 150, or even 1,000. Those sorts of settlements aren't going to be teaching people at lot about the higher TL stuff unless they NEED it.

Originally Posted by PK

Not sure what this means. Rephrase?

From that template and a few other things I get the feeling that finding a car in working condition, or close enough to make repairing it worth while, is a common thing. Cars are large, complex vehicles made possible by there being a society to support them, absent that and they don't last long. Maybe it's a nomenclature thing, but something like the Model T or earlier, a horse cart or carriage with a ethanol engine, should be the norm.

Originally Posted by PK

Not really. Most of my PCs have cheap TL5 guns. They're too useful to ignore.

That's fine. Again it could be nomenclature, but what I'm getting from the write-ups is that TL7 or 8 weapons are the norm. Possibly add a table with some sample weapons. And did TL5 guns use brass cartridges?

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by scc

From that template and a few other things I get the feeling that finding a car in working condition, or close enough to make repairing it worth while, is a common thing. Cars are large, complex vehicles made possible by there being a society to support them, absent that and they don't last long. Maybe it's a nomenclature thing, but something like the Model T or earlier, a horse cart or carriage with a ethanol engine, should be the norm.

I think you're like me- you're into a bit more realism. (I continue in my obsession about the lack of tire availability post-apocalypse.) You have to think of AtE as more like Mad Max, or Gamma World, or Fallout. But that's OK- there's still going to be a lot in AtE for us. I want something a hair less over-the-top, too, like AFTERMATH! or maybe The Morrow Project without the weird mutations, so I'm with you. You can't really remove the odd mutations from Gamma World, frex, and awesome custom vehicles are the raison d'être of Mad Max. Because Rokatansky on a Model T swinging a broadsword isn't awesome. Or maybe it is. You can do what you like.

[TorgSmith]

Originally Posted by acrosome

I think you're like me- you're into a bit more realism. (I continue in my obsession about the lack of tire availability post-apocalypse.) You have to think of AtE as more like Mad Max, or Gamma World, or Fallout. But that's OK- there's still going to be a lot in AtE for us. I want something a hair less over-the-top, too, like AFTERMATH! or maybe The Morrow Project without the weird mutations, so I'm with you. You can't really remove the odd mutations from Gamma World, frex, and awesome custom vehicles are the raison d'être of Mad Max. Because Rokatansky on a Model T swinging a broadsword isn't awesome. Or maybe it is. You can do what you like.

Yeah, this is the tough thing in creating a more specific setting type book. I am big on the more Gamma World type setting.

I suspect this had something to do with the flexibility of the templates. You can remove some of the advantages, skills or even an entire specializations if you want. You can redefine what a skill means to fit the campaign style you are looking for.

I am planning custom racial templates. I am going to see if I can pull off creating a custom mutation system for my game.

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

Originally Posted by scc

And did TL5 guns use brass cartridges?

According to Barnes "Cartridges of the World" the first brass cartridge was the .22 BB (?) Cap -- basically a small lead bullet propelled by the fulminate in a glorified percussion cap. Good for mice & sparrows, if at close range. Date 1845.

First rimfire cartridge that could actually have a real chance of hurting an adult human -- the .22 Short, 1857.

First centerfire cartridge in the mid-1860s.

[PK]

Originally Posted by acrosome

You have to think of AtE as more like Mad Max, or Gamma World, or Fallout. But that's OK- there's still going to be a lot in AtE for us.

Pretty close, yeah. Where I had to make a setting assumption, I definitely shaded toward the middle ground of Max Mad or Fallout -- though I did my best to ensure that people who wanted to run The Road or Aftermath on one end, and those who preferred Tank Girl and Gamma World on the other end, could make a few simple tweaks to fit their own vision. There's even some advice in ATE2 on this particular matter.

[PK]

Originally Posted by scc

Probably the best example is this from the Tech template: "While most wastelanders have gone low-tech, falling back on swords and push-carts, you refuse to join them in the Dark Ages." That statement is not from someone raised at the background TL4.

Ah, I see why you're confused. You think the setting is TL4. That's wrong. There is no "background TL4." The chart that you're thinking of is strictly for economic (and, in ATE2, difficulty to build/repair/etc) purposes. It has nothing to do with knowledge. ATE has no fixed TL -- TL2 axes exist alongside TL8 expanding batons and TL0 spears, and they're all covered by Armoury (Melee Weapons) which has no /TL designation.

People raised in the wasteland are not raised in "a TL4 environment." They're raised in an environment in which homemade TL0-5 gear coexists with plenty of scrounged, repaired, and repurposed TL6-8 (or 6-9 or 6-11 or whatever you set for your game) equipment. This isn't a fantasy or historical game; it's the post-apoc wasteland.

Maybe I should have said formal systems of education, but the point that they're very skilled in areas I expect there to be little ability to trained people.

That's not what GURPS assumes. For the doc, there's no reason to assume that people who know Physician and Pharmacy (Synthetic) and Surgery wouldn't pass that knowledge down to the next generation of apprentices. For those skills to not be available would require that doctors have been obliterated by the apocalypse in an unusually high proportion to the rest of the population. Similarly, the only way that Armoury and Engineer would be effectively unavailable or restricted would be if The End somehow targeted engineers. In other words, if a skill was available before The End, there's no reason to assume survivors didn't pass it down.

Frankly, it sounds like the actual issue here is just that you want different assumptions in your personal campaign. You want fewer technical skills to exist and want people to have far less pre-apocalypse knowledge than they should realistically know. And that's fine, but please recognize that this is your setting preference, not absolute statements about what a post-apoc world would actually look like.

(And, for what it's worth, I've done my best to ensure that ATE will be useful even to such a bleak view, though you'll need to tweak a few things.)

[Minuteman37]

Originally Posted by PK

There's no rule stating that Physician skill doesn't become available until a certain TL.

Silly PK, there explicitly is such a rule and it's stated right there in the Physician skill summery located on page of 213 of Basic Set Characters.

At TL4 and below, this skill does not exist in most game worlds. Instead, use Esoteric Medicine (p. 192), Pharmacy (Herbal) (above), or both.

At TL5+, medical knowledge is divided between Pharmacy (Synthetic) and Physician.

FYI I do agree with your overall point though.

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by Minuteman37

Silly PK, there explicitly is such a rule and it's stated right there in the Physician skill summery located on page of 213 of Basic Set Characters.



FYI I do agree with your overall point though.

Silly Minuteman37, That rule assumes a linear TL across all tech, you can have a TL 2 world with TL5 medicine and TL1 weapons (and TL4 agriculture).

also:

At TL4 and below, this skill does not exist in most game worlds. Instead, use Esoteric Medicine (p. 192), Pharmacy (Herbal) (above), or both.

At TL5+, medical knowledge is divided between Pharmacy (Synthetic) and Physician.

ATE games should definitely fall into the not most game worlds category of game worlds. After all the assumption is the fall of the world as it was known, its TL went from 8+ to 0 and crawled back up to 4 (or 5 or 6, which ever you prefer to start at!).


FYI I do agree with your overall point though.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by PK

Pretty close, yeah. Where I had to make a setting assumption, I definitely shaded toward the middle ground of Max Mad or Fallout -- though I did my best to ensure that people who wanted to run The Road or Aftermath on one end, and those who preferred Tank Girl and Gamma World on the other end, could make a few simple tweaks to fit their own vision. There's even some advice in ATE2 on this particular matter.

I'm glad you made it a median 'setting' and can't wait to see ATE 2.