Ninja Timeline Headache

[TheAmishStig]

Buoyed by reception to Artificial Irreverence (seriously guys, never in my wildest dreams. I figured on, in Facebook terms, getting 4-5 likes from family and SJG to drop the link too...the final tally between my personal page, the Ogre fan page, SJG's post, and shares by Ogre community members was closer to 100, not to mention the KS comments, forum comments, etc...), I've started working on a 'Bible' so that if any of those faces make another appearance, I've got my facts straight.

While reading up on a rules piece (with accompanying fiction, naturally), I noticed something. "Nearly all Ninjas were self-aware"...yet Ninjas were introduced in 2080, and Descartes wasn't until 2087.

Should I take that to mean that almost all Ninjas were refitted to be made self-aware after Descartes (if they didn't develop it independently), or is that a timeline oops?

[ColBosch]

Originally Posted by TheAmishStig

While reading up on a rules piece (with accompanying fiction, naturally), I noticed something. "Nearly all Ninjas were self-aware"...yet Ninjas were introduced in 2080, and Descartes wasn't until 2087.

Should I take that to mean that almost all Ninjas were refitted to be made self-aware after Descartes (if they didn't develop it independently), or is that a timeline oops?

This is a timeline oops.

Luckily, we can apply something called the "FASA Two-Step." This was a procedure we used at Catalyst Game Labs to fix errors thanks to FASA's utter disregard to continuity and fact-checking in the BattleTech line. Quite simply, we're looking to use any weasel words in the original document to explain away errors. (At CGL we could also use the ever-popular fallback of "ComStar misinformation," but that's not applicable for Ogre.)

So, the line says "nearly all." That gives us all the room we need. Obviously the Ninja was produced in extremely limited numbers until the Descartes Revolution. Once Ogres could be made fully self-aware, the Ninja became drastically more flexible and useful in its intended role, and production was greatly expanded. They were never really common, but self-aware Ninjas ended up far outnumbering their pre-sentient early models.

Of course, unless SJ approves this, it's not canon, but it should work for now.

[dwalend]

Originally Posted by TheAmishStig

While reading up on a rules piece (with accompanying fiction, naturally), I noticed something. "Nearly all Ninjas were self-aware"...yet Ninjas were introduced in 2080, and Descartes wasn't until 2087.

Should I take that to mean that almost all Ninjas were refitted to be made self-aware after Descartes (if they didn't develop it independently), or is that a timeline oops?

...Or the self-aware Ninjas were smart enough and sneaky enough to hide their sentience for seven years...

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by ColBosch

So, the line says "nearly all." That gives us all the room we need. Obviously the Ninja was produced in extremely limited numbers until the Descartes Revolution. Once Ogres could be made fully self-aware, the Ninja became drastically more flexible and useful in its intended role, and production was greatly expanded. They were never really common, but self-aware Ninjas ended up far outnumbering their pre-sentient early models.

I would agree with this. AFAIK, there are no hard numbers stating _how many_ Ninjas were made in the period from 2080-2087. For all we know, that number is 1 non-self-aware Ninja. Just because it was introduced in 2080, that doesn't mean there were a lot of them actually made until much later.

[TheAmishStig]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

I would agree with this. AFAIK, there are no hard numbers stating _how many_ Ninjas were made in the period from 2080-2087. For all we know, that number is 1 non-self-aware Ninja. Just because it was introduced in 2080, that doesn't mean there were a lot of them actually made until much later.

True, the only number we have is "fewer than 100 made". And I don't think we have any information on whether refits were possible to make them self-aware after the fact. I could see an R&D sort having a "Y'know, this would make them even better at what they do..." moment.

[Tom H.]

Originally Posted by dwalend

...Or the self-aware Ninjas were smart enough and sneaky enough to hide their sentience for seven years...

Yes, I love this concept.

I've considered this inherent flaw in the Turing Test to spot a sapient AI.

A truly intelligent machine may purposely fail the test posing as a mere machine to deceive people of its true nature and power. In fact, Skynet may already be in control without anyone's knowledge. ;-)

Although, if what we see around us passes for control, then how can it be that intelligent? Maybe that's the only sure-fire test.

[Tim Kauffman]

Stealth OGREs hiding their sentience is a cool idea. Maybe something having to do with their initial development being stealth, ect. contributed somehow to them evolving sentience and being able to hide it until the moment of their choosing. Did they ever truly and completely manifest their sentience and intentions and just how involved in the manifestation of the Factory States and The Night Fall were these shadow OGREs???...heh

https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248...7688275408641/

I'd also like to posite the idea that the Stealth OGREs were in fact the next generation OGRE platforms and would have replaced them given enough time and resources. They were not simply a rare and exotic one-off specialty OGRE, but rather the beginning of taking OGREs to there next form. At least this is what the Directorate of the Combine Stealth Program espouses while simultaneously asking for more funding.

[Tom H.]

Originally Posted by Tom H.

A truly intelligent machine may purposely fail the test posing as a mere machine to deceive people of its true nature and power.

Worse yet, an AI may actually modulate its near success rate on a Turing Test to maximize its own funding.

[dwalend]

Originally Posted by Tom H.

Worse yet, an AI may actually modulate its near success rate on a Turing Test to maximize its own funding.

Hey - that's my PhD thesis you're scooping!

[Buzzardo]

There was a software patch for the Ninja class. No one thought much of it at the time; it was meant to streamline some decision-making code. It turned out that it made the Ninjas sapient. The Ninjas, being Ninjas, didn't tell anyone until well after true AI was independently developed again. :)

git merge ninja