Revaluation of Attributes and Secondary Characteristics

[naloth]

I could see moving to ST 10/lvl (preferably KYOS style), putting IQ, DX, and HT at 20/lvl, and separating out Speed to also be 20/lvl. Move Will and Per to be based on HT instead of IQ. DX and IQ are effectively the skill base. HT comes up to the same value. Heroes stop getting a 9+ dodge for having 12 in DX & HT. Character values go up a touch to compensate.

ST 10/lvl. Comprised of HP (2/lvl), Striking ST (2/lvl), Lifting ST (6/lvl).
DX. Physical skill base.
IQ. Mental skill base.
HT. HT checks. Will & Per base.
Speed (new attribute).

Radical, sure. My gut feel is that it spreads the cost around a bit better, though.

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by Hide

And what are those, in your opinion?

The fact that I can buy HT and sell back Basic Speed, FP, and Easy to Kill to gain the other benefits of HT for free. The fact that IQ is worth more than DX due to its secondary characteristics. The fact that ST is not really worth its expense, which the extra rule I introduced helps address (as well as having Will and Basic Move being derived from ST).

In the case of the new rule, characters may spend one FP per +1 ST (or one HP per +2 ST) to increase ST up to twice its level for one turn in combat or one minute outside of combat (which is cumulative with Extra Effort). For example, a character with ST 12 could spend 6 HP to increase their ST to 24 for one turn in combat or one minute outside of combat (the increase would benefit Basic Lift and Damage, but not HP or Will, and would be cumulative with CA and AOA options). So the character could spend 6 HP to increase their swing damage from 1d+2 to 3d-1 for one turn or increase their BL from 29 lbs to 116 lbs for one minute (possible increasing their swing damage to 3d+2 with AOA or BL up to 232 lbs with Extra Effort).

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The fact that I can buy HT and sell back Basic Speed, FP, and Easy to Kill to gain the other benefits of HT for free.

The easier fix is just to borrow an idea from Hero and say you can only "sell back" one of HTs derived characteristics.

[RyanW]

I object to attempts to base speed on ST. ST means nothing with regard to speed. Only ST relative to mass, which is already handled nicely by giving characters with disproportionate ST increased (or reduced) DX.

[AlexanderHowl]

I can still take Easy to Kill 1-5, Susceptible (Disease) 1-5, and Susceptible (Poison) 1-5 to gain everything from HT 11-15 for 'free' and then take Easy to Kill 6-10 and sell back Basic Speed -2.00 to get HT 16-20 for 'free'. You have to restrain disadvantages and negative secondary characteristics a lot more than that to make HT less broken.

Point for point, HT is by far the most cost effective attribute. I would much rather play a character with ST 12, DX 12, IQ 12, and HT 20 than a character with ST 20, DX 12, IQ 12, and HT 12, or a character with ST 12, DX 16, IQ 12, and HT 12, or a character with ST 12, DX 12, IQ 16, and HT 12 (though the last is a close call), despite the fact that they cost exactly the same amount at 200 CP. I get FP 20, Basic Speed 8.00, and a base attribute of 20 for HT rolls and HT skills.

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by RyanW

I object to attempts to base speed on ST. ST means nothing with regard to speed. Only ST relative to mass, which is already handled nicely by giving characters with disproportionate ST increased (or reduced) DX.

Basic Move is derived from ST & HT while Basic Speed is derived from DX and IQ.

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I can still take Easy to Kill 1-5, Susceptible (Disease) 1-5, and Susceptible (Poison) 1-5 to gain everything from HT 11-15 for 'free' and then take Easy to Kill 6-10 and sell back Basic Speed -2.00 to get HT 16-20 for 'free'. You have to restrain disadvantages and negative secondary characteristics a lot more than that to make HT less broken.

What I'm suggesting is that you cannot do that.

Point for point, HT is by far the most cost effective attribute. I would much rather play a character with ST 12, DX 12, IQ 12, and HT 20 than a character with ST 20, DX 12, IQ 12, and HT 12, or a character with ST 12, DX 16, IQ 12, and HT 12, or a character with ST 12, DX 12, IQ 16, and HT 12 (though the last is a close call), despite the fact that they cost exactly the same amount at 200 CP. I get FP 20, Basic Speed 8.00, and a base attribute of 20 for HT rolls and HT skills.

I'll agree with you here, but this is a feature not a bug. IIRC, it's intentional that HT gives a lot of bang for the buck because it gives a discount for survivability.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

• The fact that I can buy HT and sell back Basic Speed, FP, and Easy to Kill to gain the other benefits of HT for free.
• The fact that IQ is worth more than DX due to its secondary characteristics.
• The fact that ST is not really worth its expense, which the extra rule I introduced helps address (as well as having Will and Basic Move being derived from ST).

I sympathize with the last two, and I can see the third. I think you may be over-complicating your fix though: I thought one of your objectives was to make all attributes cost [20].

You're making ST more expensive and less likely to be bought: the will is worth [5], and a quarter of a basic move is worth [1.25], so that's [16.25] worth of value in the old system now costing [20]. The rule allowing FP to temporarily increase ST makes it easier for people to build effective characters with low ST, not harder.

I think these goals are best served by doing less coupling, not more. Basing Will and Per off 10 instead of a different attribute is a fairly common house-rule. If you want to make ST cheaper, you should make it cheaper, not include bonuses when you buy it.

As for the HT problem.... I don't find it a problem, but you might want to look at uncoupling basic speed from HT and DX, and just basing it on 5.00. Or raise the price of HT to [15]

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

So, what do you think?

My one instant reaction is that ST and Will realistically have very little to do with each other.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Basic Move is derived from ST & HT while Basic Speed is derived from DX and IQ.

I meant any sort of speed - whether reaction time or running speed. Olympic weightlifters don't compete in sprinting, and it isn't because they would have an unfair advantage.