Problem with Traps?

[cupbearer]

Hi,

So according to pyramid article and the traps book for DF, each trap is defined by a few measures (detect, avoid, save etc)...
The Save in a trap basically tells how to rule the defense roll to not get hit by the trap in the event that you have triggered it.

Problem?
Well, yes... Basic page 374 says you get no defense roll against a booby trap... It's pretty clear that if you didn't detect it's presence you didn't know it was there and couldn't roll defense.

Before people start saying this is a DF thing - just wait a sec... for behold, on page 47 of the DF book you cannot defend against something unless you knew it was coming. Its a shorter sentence doesn't mention booby trap but seems to be saying the same thing.

I think by definition a trap is not something you can see coming, so unless you literally can only save against a trap you knowingly sprung I don't understand what the hell to do here..... I'm writing up a dungeon right now for Saturday and am full of despair, suggestions?

[Stormcrow]

Supplements to GURPS sometimes change GURPS rules. It's not like GURPS has always been a magnificent, hidden whole that is being revealed bit by bit. People just make this stuff up.

This sounds like one of those times.

I can't speak about Dungeon Fantasy.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

I think by definition a trap is not something you can see coming, so unless you literally can only save against a trap you knowingly sprung I don't understand what the hell to do here..... I'm writing up a dungeon right now for Saturday and am full of despair, suggestions?

My recollection is that DF gives some traps no save. I assume that for the others there's a slight sound or a visual sign that they've triggered just before the attack lands, or a delay (as with the floor going out from under you with a pit trap - there's an instant where you can react and grab at the edge of the trap). Thus some traps allow you a 'save', while others don't.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

Before people start saying this is a DF thing...

It is a DF thing.

...just wait a sec... for behold, on page 47 of the DF book you cannot defend against something unless you knew it was coming.

Which "the DF book". There are like 20 of them...

I suspect you mean DFRPG Exploits. Mostly on account the actual 'DF' DF Books don't go to 47 pages...

Here, it says:

"You get a defense roll only if you know you’re being attacked!"

Defense roll. It's right in the middle of the section about defending against attacks during combat.

The relevant section on Traps in DFRPG Exploits starts on pg 23. It also doesn't allow for saves, because, and I'm not kidding here, the rules in DFRPG Exploits rules are pulled straight from Basic and just reassembled in Exploits.


Also, I think you're missing something from DFRPG Traps:

"Avoid: Remember that this is only for getting around detected traps."

"Save: As the last-ditch roll for those caught in a trap, this is important."

So the only way to Avoid a trap is to know it's there and then do something, but to Save you are caught in the trap. And most of these Saves are things like "HT vs Poison". The ones that give defense rolls literally require a second Per check, usually at a penalty, in order to get a defense (the few that don't are 'slow enough' that a quick adventurer could Dodge them, at a penalty).

Now, if they aren't paying attention to the trapped thing (door, chest, whatever) in your opinion but are still within it's effect, you are well within your rights as GM to assess a further Per penalty based on circumstances.

Is giving them a second penalyzed Per roll is not something ever discussed before in GURPS? Yeah, but it fits the genre well and it doesn't break anything.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Is giving them a second penalyzed Per roll is not something ever discussed before in GURPS? Yeah, but it fits the genre well and it doesn't break anything.

ISTR rules somewhere in Campaigns for getting a Hearing roll to detect an attack from an unseen enemy (or at least one attacking from behind), with success allowing for a defense, so it’s not completely without precedent.