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04-16-2021, 09:38 AM | #31 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
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Re: [Social Engineering / Basic Set] Doubling hireling pay increases loyalty by too m
In which case the NPC's loyalty result is determined by the GM, and this always overrides anything on the reaction table.
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04-17-2021, 01:29 AM | #32 |
Join Date: Apr 2021
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Re: [Social Engineering / Basic Set] Doubling hireling pay increases loyalty by too m
Part of the issue is not just loyalty but what that makes the person willing to do. I'd estimate that most modem people have a lot of disadvantages such as pacifism, cowardice, aversion to danger and so forth that would make most people useless in a fight (if two people at McDonald's start shooting at each other 99% chance everyone else just freezes or runs).
Beyond that it's just the normal problem of GURPS resolution being to coarse, in many circumstances, to account for variety, ie I real life it's possible to be shot 33 times by a .357 magnum at close range and not only live but suffer no permanent debilitating effects. The dice in GURPS do not allow that. Likewise, real people have priorities and subjective experiences, not a table of Utils where they compare their Loyalty to a chart of possible actions. Any time you approach the limit of statistical regularity (ie IQ 16) things can get very silly. GURPS had fairly plausible statistical outcomes but the borders of the bell curve can't be 'fixed'. Of you redesigned GURPS around d20s you could get a lot more specific with bonuses but most people already think GURPS has too many numbers. Last edited by Tiger; 04-17-2021 at 01:37 AM. |
04-19-2021, 05:39 AM | #33 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: [Social Engineering / Basic Set] Doubling hireling pay increases loyalty by too m
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04-19-2021, 12:10 PM | #34 | |
Join Date: Sep 2018
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Re: [Social Engineering / Basic Set] Doubling hireling pay increases loyalty by too m
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Would I be gravely ill in a hospital and be stressed out about my job? Would I come in to work before my doctor advised me to? Would I work around carcinogenics or other toxins that will shorten my life? Would I operate machinery that could kill my or others without proper training or correct safety guidelines. **** I do that stuff for regular pay. Would I be willing to take a bullet for my employer or even risk being completely destroyed for double pay? There are armies in active war zones who's infantry soldiers are under fire every week who earn less than a Burger King Employee. So would everyone take that risk? No, that's crazy. But someone would. Would I grovel at the feet of the guy paying me double $5 to mow his lawn. Man, I'd barely flip him off for that kind of money. Would I eulogize Bill Gates or Elon Musk if I was making double normal wages for my White Collar job and that kind of worship was part of the corporate culture. I think most people in those corporate environments do worship their employer. I might even build a little shrine to my boss at my desk and would probably pursue whatever nutty philosophy they espouse. It is TWICE what I should make. You can't help how you feel about things if your an NPC on a really great reaction roll but you're not divorced from logic or your own priorities or your sense of self-preservation. You're going to do some stuff you're not proud of for double pay, maybe even feel a sense of undeserved gratitude, but ultimately you're not going to do anything you probably wouldn't do for money no matter how good the roll is. Last edited by Black Leviathan; 04-19-2021 at 12:30 PM. |
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04-19-2021, 12:29 PM | #35 | |
Join Date: Sep 2018
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Re: [Social Engineering / Basic Set] Doubling hireling pay increases loyalty by too m
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Your party has been doing business with a blacksmith in the city and they regularly pay for rush work because they are laden with gold and have to get back into the fight. He loves seeing you guys coming because he knows he will work through the night and can take the rest of the week off with his family. He kicks other customers out when you walk in because **** those guys. You know that there's a tomb you need seal shut, but you're not blacksmith. You want to hire him to go down into the tomb with your party to do the work he does for you where he might die. Everyone in this town has heard about your bringing your fallen comrade to the temple as a bag of ashes to see if they could be resurrected. He obviously tells you "no". He has a family and if you can't take it, there will be plenty of other adventurers who want to pay him for rush work after you die. But the blacksmith down the street is about to lose his shop and his wife has already left him. He's got good armor and he likes his odds. He's desperate for cash and he will bend over backwards to do that job at two full days of double pay in advance. And if he makes it out alive with your party, he might do it again even if he doesn't need the money as desperately, because you guys saved his business and looked out for him in the dungeon. Paying double doesn't eliminate the will of any NPC, but it will make some NPC willing and extraordinarily loyal. |
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04-19-2021, 09:29 PM | #36 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: U.S.
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Re: [Social Engineering / Basic Set] Doubling hireling pay increases loyalty by too m
While I use the rules I don't let players abuse the rules.
A common axiom is that an employee's loyalty is like eating a crap sandwich. The more bread involved, the more crap someone will eat. In the general that may be true but there is also the truism in business that people don't quit jobs, they quit people. Also, that recognition is very often more motivating than money. So yes, players can double the blacksmith's pay (using the above blacksmith), but what does that really mean to the smith? Is he getting appropriate compensation for the result being achieved? And how long until the smith starts deciding that his newfound wealth from his benefactors lets him work himself out of the scenario. A common man could live really well on the profit of some relatively minor magic item's market value. BUT what if in addition to the cash the character puts the smith in for a royal certification of his shop? What if he makes sure to let the local guard captain know the smith is a quality craftsman and gets business pushed his way? What if the character gets the smith a set of very fine tools or offers to expand the smith's forge or arranged for quality ingots to become available to him? Or gives the smith an additional amount to take on some apprentices? This is not just a salary relationship but and investment into the smith, his craft, and the relationship. That's going to play better and be more realistic. Do I think the smith will stand in the face of a hoard of orcs so the character can run? Nope, but he might arrange other opportunities that the character didn't have before. If you need rules codifying this I think the closest would be from GURPS Social Engineering, 'Keeping in Contact'. DISCLAIMER: Run your table the way you like. Me, I still use the rule from the D&D DMG that says the rules are a suggestion and the GM rules.
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And all should cry, "Beware, beware! His flashing eyes, his floating hair! Weave a circle round him thrice & close your eyes with holy dread for he on honeydew hath fed & drunk the milk of paradise" |
04-20-2021, 12:20 AM | #37 |
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
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Re: [Social Engineering / Basic Set] Doubling hireling pay increases loyalty by too m
This is definitely me attacking the symptom and not the problem, but I feel like a simple fix would be "money can't buy perfect loyalty". The modifier from money can't be enough to go past Very Good.
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