What kind of limitation for magery that raises only spell level limits?

[Malfi]

Sorry if this has been asked before, what kind of limitation would be appropriate for magery that doesn't affect casting time, fatigue point reduction and resistance rolls?

[Anaraxes]

Magery is a Talent that adds to spell skills. It's the spell skill, not the magery, that affects casting time, energy cost, and resistance rolls. So, it sounds like you want Magery to be a Talent that raises spell skill only for the purpose of the success in casting roll?

Looking at it that way, it's something like a Talent that applies to fewer skills. Not really fewer skills, of course, but fewer of the rolls involved in the same skills, so it's something similar. Magery's only 10 points, so you could just drop it to the smallest category of Talent possible, 5 points per level.

If you want to think of the change as a Limitation, then the canonical Limitations for Magery are usually -40% or -50%. Those are a bit variable (is One-College Magery really just as limiting as Song Magery?), but this limit is comparable. -50% again puts you at 5 points/level. (Even -80% would be 2 points per level, so the choices are effectively 2, 3, 4, or 5.)

But rather than change Magery, would it be a better fit to redefine the meaning of a spell skill? If a matter of skill at magic doesn't get you better casting time or lower energy or harder to resist effects, then maybe it's the skill that needs to change. If you want those effects to depend purely on study of a skill (CP invested into it), rather than any natural aptitudes like Magery or IQ, perhaps you'd want to recast those benefits in terms of relative skill level ("IQ+2", etc) or the CP spent, rather than the actual skill level.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Malfi

Sorry if this has been asked before, what kind of limitation would be appropriate for magery that doesn't affect casting time, fatigue point reduction and resistance rolls?

Magery doesn't affect any of those things so that's the wrong question. The right question "What kind of limitation would be appropriate for Magery that doesn't affect spell skill.". I'd go with maybe 40% assuming I allowed it. Which I wouldn't since to my mind whether or not Magery affects spell skill is a world-building decision and one I'd want to be consistent for all mages.

[Malfi]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Magery doesn't affect any of those things so that's the wrong question. The right question "What kind of limitation would be appropriate for Magery that doesn't affect spell skill.".

Well said.
My idea was you get a normal cap for magery that affects spell skill, say 3, and then a different cap, say 10, for magery that doesn't affect spell skill, but still affects max damage and stuff.
The idea is, this way you can overcome the "magic does everything but sucks at damage" problem the core magic system has.

Would this work?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Malfi

Would this work?

Yes. For the "max damage" I'd just treat that as a Leveled Perk bought for each spell individually (it's mostly only Missile* spells affected by this anyway). Each level is treated as a level of Magery for increasing how much FP can be spent into the spell for "leveled FP spending purposes".



* Well, Missile spells, a few Melee spells, and a few Healing spells. If this ends up feeling "too expensive" (because they go crazy with Missile spells) you can just make it 5 points per level Advantage (or even let them do both, a 'universal' 5 point per level "Increased FP Limit" Advantage and a few individual "Increased [Spell Name] FP Limit" Perks for individualization, Or even require them to to buy four and then convert to the universal when they've picked up the fifth Perk).


[EDIT]
And for your 'base' Magery not affecting FP Expenditure Limits, I'd just leave Magery at the same cost. This is such a minor part of that Advantage it's not worth reducing 'regular' Magery over it. Just declare it a Campaign Feature.
[/EDIT]

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Malfi

Well said.
My idea was you get a normal cap for magery that affects spell skill, say 3, and then a different cap, say 10, for magery that doesn't affect spell skill, but still affects max damage and stuff.
The idea is, this way you can overcome the "magic does everything but sucks at damage" problem the core magic system has.

Would this work?

...why not just buy a magic innate attack?

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

...why not just buy a magic innate attack?

Because the idea is to work for all variable cost spells, and not just Fireball? That would be my guess.

[Malfi]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Yes. For the "max damage" I'd just treat that as a Leveled Perk bought for each spell individually (it's mostly only Missile* spells affected by this anyway). Each level is treated as a level of Magery for increasing how much FP can be spent into the spell for "leveled FP spending purposes".



* Well, Missile spells, a few Melee spells, and a few Healing spells. If this ends up feeling "too expensive" (because they go crazy with Missile spells) you can just make it 5 points per level Advantage (or even let them do both, a 'universal' 5 point per level "Increased FP Limit" Advantage and a few individual "Increased [Spell Name] FP Limit" Perks for individualization, Or even require them to to buy four and then convert to the universal when they've picked up the fifth Perk).


[EDIT]
And for your 'base' Magery not affecting FP Expenditure Limits, I'd just leave Magery at the same cost. This is such a minor part of that Advantage it's not worth reducing 'regular' Magery over it. Just declare it a Campaign Feature.
[/EDIT]

So basically either a leveled perk for a specific spell or if this seems too expensive to me a -50% limitation?

Thinking about it perhaps a problem is that it also increases limits for attribute and damage resistance enhancers and this could have unintentional consequences.
Like instead of blasting you simply give people +10 dexterity.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Malfi

So basically either a leveled perk for a specific spell or if this seems too expensive to me a -50% limitation?

Less, "-50% Limitation" and more "the Ambidexterity treatment for Off-Hand Weapon Training".

Because, to some PCs 5 points per level will be "too expensive", while with others it might feel too inexpensive...

Thinking about it perhaps a problem is that it also increases limits for attribute and damage resistance enhancers and this could have unintentional consequences.
Like instead of blasting you simply give people +10 dexterity.

Only if you allow spells that normally can't be increased past their limits to be increased past their limits.

[Malfi]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Only if you allow spells that normally can't be increased past their limits to be increased past their limits.

Isn't that a rule? Any magery higher than 3 can potentially increase the limits of a spell.