Draw Power at TL3

[trooper6]

So. You need lots of energy and you are in a Low Mana world.

My two thoughts may not be helpful, but here you go:
Option 1) Get a Familiar that grants Energy.
Option 2) Use ceremonial Magic (B237). You said you didn't have assistance, but presumably you have other party members correct? These party members are also presumably non-Mages. Let's say you have 4 party members. If they count as spectators, that is another 4 energy...no too much. If you can teach them the high cost spell at a skill level of 15+, they can each give you 3 energy...that's 12 energy total...not too shabby. If one of them has Magery 0, you can pool your energy together to get more energy. You may even want to rope in your party member buddies to help with cheaper spells in order to get a skill bonus to help compensate for the -5 for Low Mana.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

But the energy doesn't come from the spell. It's just like if I nudge a tungsten rod into the earth's gravity. It doesn't mean I'm Superman when it explodes on impact. The spell isn't what's acting on it, the earth's gravity is.

You are overlooking the point that if it was already on the ground in the first place, it wouldn't do any such thing. It has energy only because it is raised to a height. And if you raise it, you are putting energy into it, whether you do so by magic or by picking it up and carrying it.

How much physics have you had, anyway? This is basic conservation of mechanical energy, first semester college physics. You can calculate the gravitation potential energy of the rod when it's on the ground, and when it's a mile up, and they're not the same. If it goes from on the ground to a mile up because you cast a spell, you've increased its potential energy, by definition. You can make all the handwaving verbal arguments you like, but the math is completely clear.

Bill Stoddard

[ErhnamDJ]

How much physics have you had, anyway?

Zip. I've done a very little amount of reading, but that's it.

first semester college physics.

Definitely don't have that.

I do get what you're saying. It's just that I would think it was the gravity that was adding the energy, and not the magical spell. Like if the spell teleported the lead ball into a moving train, would it be the train adding the energy, or the spell?

It was my understanding that the amount of energy in the universe is fixed (discounting quantum effects), and that just by moving this lead ball to a new place, you wouldn't actually be adding new energy to the system, and that it would be that natural energy that was already there that would cause the ball to fall. But I guess that was wrong? And that the spell would be causing the amount of energy in existence to increase? And there's that Einstein thing where energy can be turned into matter, I think, so you could be increasing the amount of matter in the universe by using magical gateways, and... I'm so confused. This is why I stick with things where I can have nice, neat logical axioms. It's a small amount of understanding I have to have.

See the spell Create Fuel on p. 179, which says, "Other Energy spells such as Steal Power or Draw Power cannot tap magically created fuel or a machine using created fuel for energy.

I wouldn't have interpreted that to be a general rule. I would take "Magically created," in that case, to mean energy created by the Create Energy spell, not horses made with the Create Animal spell, or heat from the Heat spell. But I can certainly see why you would you would want to use your interpretation.


I do think there would be some way to make a water wheel that works in Niagra if you can use force walls. Just make a big bronze wheel and set it down on a couple of force walls and it will turn and turn. I think. I just don't know.

[C4lv1n]

I don't understand all the hate for mana generators, even perpetual motion ones. It's going to cost between 300 and 500 energy to set up, and it's really only useful during down time since most are either imobile, or cause relativistic collisions when moved.

If a charchter is going to make that investment. LET HIM!

And I disagree with those that say "it's unbalanced" Just imagine if that same person put the same amount of time/energy/charchter points into getting an alternative to the mana generator (ie: a ton of assistants, etc) It's going to work out about the same.

When my charcters try to pull stuff like this, I let them, sometimes I require that they take levels in High TL but that's about it.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

This is why I stick with things where I can have nice, neat logical axioms. It's a small amount of understanding I have to have.

Everything I said comes straight out of Newtonian mechanics and classical thermodynamics, which do have nice, neat logical axioms. You just don't happen to know them, and in fact, you probably don't know the language that's best suited to state them, which is calculus.

I wouldn't have interpreted that to be a general rule. I would take "Magically created," in that case, to mean energy created by the Create Energy spell, not horses made with the Create Animal spell, or heat from the Heat spell. But I can certainly see why you would you would want to use your interpretation.

Moreover, even if I didn't, I have had many discussions of rules and game mechanics with Kromm, and I can assure you, he's not in favor of freebies. He really does believe that there ain't no such thing as a free lunch . . . in GURPS, at least.

Bill Stoddard

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Everything I said comes straight out of Newtonian mechanics and classical thermodynamics, which do have nice, neat logical axioms.

Ah. I see now how I should have phrased that. It's not the presence of logical axioms that I favor, but the lack of reliance on empirical data.

You just don't happen to know them, and in fact, you probably don't know the language that's best suited to state them, which is calculus.

I did read up on calculus when I read Quicksilver. I then quickly forgot all of it. I did learn a valuable lesson that came in handy for Anathem, though. No telling how much time I could have wasted on that one.

Moreover, even if I didn't, I have had many discussions of rules and game mechanics with Kromm, and I can assure you, he's not in favor of freebies. He really does believe that there ain't no such thing as a free lunch . . . in GURPS, at least.

I don't know. A lot of those spells look like you're getting stuff for free. Or at a cost so low as to be negligible. With Recover Energy, all you risk is a critical failure.

And I think this is a point where we run into game cost vs. internal, game world mechanistic cost. Is the cost there supposed to be opportunity cost that the player pays in terms of character points? Or is this supposed to be a case of the magic in the game world having an internal cost, its own version of conservation of energy?

Because I'm not seeing conservation of energy. You can still build the perpetual motion machine with the magical gateways. I'm sure with modern technology, we would get a lot of free lunch out of having access to those gateways.

If you retain conservation, then the magical gateway isn't adding energy to the system, and it's natural gravity that is doing so. But... the magic is obviously causing some physical effect. Physical reality is being altered by it. What we end up doing is trying to reason the laws of magic, and unlike the laws of reality, those aren't likely to lead us to consist results. There's an exchange rate from nuclear power to magical energy via the Draw Power spell, yet with magic one can create a perpetual motion machine.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by whswhs

No. There aren't any. I did the estimates when I was writing GURPS Thaumatology: Urban Magics, and had to come up with special, lower-power spells that could handle the trivial energy outputs of the era.

I think we may have overlooked one, Bill. It occurs to me that sailing ships have more sail area than the largest windmills, and several of them could be chained to a single, very sturdy capstan. Certainly large assemblies of tethered vessels are documented as early as the 5th and 6th centuries BC in the form of pontoon bridges.

[MEC]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

I think we may have overlooked one, Bill. It occurs to me that sailing ships have more sail area than the largest windmills, and several of them could be chained to a single, very sturdy capstan. Certainly large assemblies of tethered vessels are documented as early as the 5th and 6th centuries BC in the form of pontoon bridges.

Actually after reading this, I'm not even sure we need a bunch of them tethered together. Could someone who knows physics better than me check my math?

175 ton sailing ship traveling at 4 knots becomes a
350,000 pound ship travelling at 24320 feet per hour.

In other words 8,512,000,000 foot pounds per hour.

If 1 horsepower is 1980,000 foot pounds per hour, then doesn’t that mean that ship is using 4299 hp to travel at 4 knots (not even counting friction of the water)?
With 745.6998 watts per horsepower, that should be about 32 Megawatts or 89 Energy/sec avail when using Draw Power.

Any flaws in my math or assumptions?

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by MEC

175 ton sailing ship traveling at 4 knots becomes a
350,000 pound ship travelling at 24320 feet per hour.

In other words 8,512,000,000 foot pounds per hour.
...
Any flaws in my math or assumptions?

The foot in foot-pound is vertical. Horizontal progress of a ship involves water resistance and hull shape and other hydrodynamic considerations I'm not terribly familiar with.

[roguebfl]

Your best bet is to sett up an Archimedes Screw in a water fall.