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Old 05-25-2009, 01:02 PM   #61
Bruno
 
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Default Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!

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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
Really? Did the Babylonians, Egyptians, Hittites, and Greeks all use tin from Britain in their Bronze weapons? Or did early TL 2 Bronze contain tin and TL 1 Bronze was made differently?
"As of 2001, the oldest tin mine found is in the Taurus Mountains in Turkey, but younger but still ancient tin mines are located in Spain, Brittany, and Great Britain. Mining of tin ore started in the Scilly Isles[25] and Cornwall around 2000 BC, and securing these strategically important sites is one reason why the Romans invaded and occupied Great Britain." (Wikipedia)

Important to note, however, is that tin mines run out, and tin mines need to be discovered and need to be accessible to mining technologies of the era. Tin was discovered this century in asia - I'm not sure if they are at all near enough to the surface for TL 1 miners though. Or if the cornwall tin mines are, either.

There's not much tin out there, but even less of it is conveniently 50-80 feet or closer to the surface, which was basically the limit of accessability for TL1 miners IIRC. That all is going to get dug up very quickly.
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Old 05-25-2009, 01:31 PM   #62
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Default Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!

Thanks Bruno, that answers my question. It seemed implausible to me that the Egyptians and Assyrians and everyone else in the TL 1 ancient near east were using tin from as far away as Britain.

Turkey and Spain would have been much more accessible, and there may have been small tin mines closer to the earliest civilizations that just didn't leave an archaeological record.

Seems like Tin could be an excellent "Unobtanium" for a TL 1 campaign.
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Old 05-25-2009, 11:59 PM   #63
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Default Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!

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See, that's a level of detail that I'd like to see. Iron can make cheaper weapons, bronze is heavier and more expensive, but might have a higher DR, etc....
The difference in effectiveness (as opposed to price) between a bronze blade, an iron blade and a low-quality steel blade are almost certainly below the resolution of GURPS. Sorry, but at some point, we just have to say: 'Eh, it's pretty much the same end result'.

Rest assured, though, in those cases where there is a difference between something, the writers will in most cases care more than enough about their subjects to ensure that the game stats reflect this.

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Of course, in a fantasy world, how rare and expensive certain materials are may vary according to GM fiat, but I've always favored using the real world as a starting point.
The real world as a starting point and a familar benchmark to aid visualisation is what attracted me to GURPS. Making judgment calls is far easier if the numbers and rules represent concrete things.

Maybe Bob the Barbarian is stronger, faster and hardier than any mortal man, but at least we can quantify by how much. ;)
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Old 05-26-2009, 03:08 AM   #64
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The difference in effectiveness (as opposed to price) between a bronze blade, an iron blade and a low-quality steel blade are almost certainly below the resolution of GURPS. Sorry, but at some point, we just have to say: 'Eh, it's pretty much the same end result'.
Is that going to be fixed, then? Because B275 seems to be of the opinion that the difference in price may be below resolution but the difference in effectiveness is not.
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Old 05-26-2009, 07:13 AM   #65
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Is that going to be fixed, then? Because B275 seems to be of the opinion that the difference in price may be below resolution but the difference in effectiveness is not.
The sections on different materials will differ from B275, yes.
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Old 05-26-2009, 11:01 PM   #66
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Default Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!

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Oh yes. I'm currently trying to pump some Usenet horse people for knowledge about what horses can do under various circumstances.
Especially, don't just cover the standard assumption, of each player character owning one horse. Also deal with courier horse relays where the rider can change hourse 5 or 10 or 38 times a day, or one rider owning multiple horses which he can alternate between.
This would be much goodness. I just finished a full house-rule creation of overland travel, simply using the HT rule & extending it to mounts. Travel rate determined by encumbrance (ie: the PC & his crap) with per hour Fatigue costs, which make having either a pack animal or relay mount, Traveling on a lighter horse, with your warhorse loaded & ready but not mounted, etc as options.

I found the chariot/cart/carriage rules kind of wrote themselves at that point. Ie: Encumbrance shared among multiple creatures.

Anyway, While I have my rules to use NOW, but I'll look forward to more "solid" rules.
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Old 05-27-2009, 02:15 AM   #67
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Default Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!

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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
Really? Did the Babylonians, Egyptians, Hittites, and Greeks all use tin from Britain in their Bronze weapons? Or did early TL 2 Bronze contain tin and TL 1 Bronze was made differently?
AFAIK yes they did use tin. The only thing I'm not 100% sure about is whether the British isles were really the only source of tin, in that era, but if it was then that's where they imported it from.

Also note the old legend about Joseph of Arithmatea(sp?) who donated his grave cave to Jesus of Nazareth. He was a Jewish tin merchant, arranging the transport of tin from Britain to the Middle East - that's why some legends suggest that the Holy Grail, or the Spear of Destiny, or both, are in Britain - they were carried by Joseph.
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Old 05-27-2009, 02:18 AM   #68
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Default Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!

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This would be much goodness. I just finished a full house-rule creation of overland travel, simply using the HT rule & extending it to mounts. Travel rate determined by encumbrance (ie: the PC & his crap) with per hour Fatigue costs, which make having either a pack animal or relay mount, Traveling on a lighter horse, with your warhorse loaded & ready but not mounted, etc as options.

I found the chariot/cart/carriage rules kind of wrote themselves at that point. Ie: Encumbrance shared among multiple creatures.

Anyway, While I have my rules to use NOW, but I'll look forward to more "solid" rules.
I'm not particularly convinced that GURPS overland travel rules interact properly with Fit and Very Fit, so that's one thing I'd like to see addressed.

Another is whether horses (and other mount animals) can have Very Fit at all, or if (as I'm inclined to assme) it is a taboo trait for them. And some information about how rare Fit horses are, in terms of a cost multiplier or CF or whatever.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:57 AM   #69
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Default Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!

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Another is whether horses (and other mount animals) can have Very Fit at all, or if (as I'm inclined to assme) it is a taboo trait for them. And some information about how rare Fit horses are, in terms of a cost multiplier or CF or whatever.
It should be extremely rare. In fact, most animals should have Unfit - humans are built for endurance running. See also this.
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Old 05-27-2009, 08:20 AM   #70
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Default Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
AFAIK yes they did use tin. The only thing I'm not 100% sure about is whether the British isles were really the only source of tin, in that era, but if it was then that's where they imported it from...
The world's oldest tin mine is actually in Turkey. Spain and Brittany had some ancient ones, too (and I'm sure there were early non-European ones I don't know about). Britain was a major source in its day (one reason the Romans considered it strategic), but it wasn't the only source by any means. (See Bruno's earlier post, which notes the same thing.)
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