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Old 07-19-2008, 01:04 AM   #11
safisher
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertsconley
I doubled it by mistake. It is about 1,500 acres. 750 to support the knight and 750 to support the horses.
Er, the stocking rates of horses is very well known. Depending on grass quality, horses can completely forage on 1-5 acres (assuming a 1,000 lb. horse). An acre of really good grass will feed a horse year round. Assume about 4 tons per acre, and 4 tons consumed per horse per year. The least acceptable grazing might produce 1 ton per year. The easier way is to make sure your grass is managed right (not over-grazed or under-grazed, i.e., cross fence your pastures and rotate horses to ungrazed areas) and that it has the right mixture of grasses on it. I have no idea what Harn is assuming at 750 acres to support the horses . . . you could run a herd of several dozen horses on 750 acres.

Now, if you want to take that horse on the road, and travel constantly, day in day out, the horse needs to eat grain to replace the loss of grazing for hours. That's approximately 1-2% of bodyweight, generally split evenly between grain and fodder, perhaps less if the feed is good quality and the horse can graze at night on good grass -- they'll eat around 1-2 pounds of grass per hour. (Horses sleep at most 2 hours at a time, and mostly cat nap. They will only lay down and sleep if they feel safe, typically if they are in a stall, or with other horses who will keep watch.)
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Old 07-19-2008, 06:42 AM   #12
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

Can't say that I have much experience with horses, but I have noticed that no one has mentioned Running skill. This should help with fatigue loss while traveling long distances.
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Old 07-19-2008, 10:11 AM   #13
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by safisher
Er, the stocking rates of horses is very well known. Depending on grass quality, horses can completely forage on 1-5 acres (assuming a 1,000 lb. horse). An acre of really good grass will feed a horse year round. Assume about 4 tons per acre, and 4 tons consumed per horse per year. The least acceptable grazing might produce 1 ton per year. The easier way is to make sure your grass is managed right (not over-grazed or under-grazed, i.e., cross fence your pastures and rotate horses to ungrazed areas) and that it has the right mixture of grasses on it. I have no idea what Harn is assuming at 750 acres to support the horses . . . you could run a herd of several dozen horses on 750 acres.

Now, if you want to take that horse on the road, and travel constantly, day in day out, the horse needs to eat grain to replace the loss of grazing for hours. That's approximately 1-2% of bodyweight, generally split evenly between grain and fodder, perhaps less if the feed is good quality and the horse can graze at night on good grass -- they'll eat around 1-2 pounds of grass per hour. (Horses sleep at most 2 hours at a time, and mostly cat nap. They will only lay down and sleep if they feel safe, typically if they are in a stall, or with other horses who will keep watch.)
That 750 acres includes the land needed to grow the oats (in an inefficient two-field system, plowed by oxen), plus the costs of replacement tack and harness, maintenance of stables, and stuff such as that. Seems a bit high, to me, as well, but it is meant to cover all costs -- not just grazing.
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Old 07-19-2008, 01:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

safisher has the right of it for the most part, and the rest of it I can't say yea or nay to ;)

As for what is Harn Manor? It is a product put out by Columbia Games for use with Harnworld. It is however, remarkably "game system" tolerant because of the way the game was designed.

Quickie synopsis and any further discussion on this "digression" should have its own thread, is thus:

Harn Manor is a tool for building a medieval style village construct for use by the GM and even player characters living in a medieval village.

Basic information needed up front before the game begins:
Gross Acres held by the Manor holder (which could be knight or bailiff)
Number of tenant families - used to generate total tenant acres held
Total woodland acres - this is generated as a percentage of Gross acres
Demense acres - held by the manor holder for his own personal income. What is left after tenant acres and wood acres are deducted from gross acres.

From there, the rules help the GM generate what percentage of tenant and demense acres are planted with which crops, as well as the numbers and kinds of animals that live within the manor's boundaries as far as domesticated animals.

From there, the GM can determine the incomes of various individuals such as cottars (serfs with little land), half-villiens (serfs kinda keeping their heads above water), Villiens (well to do serfs), freeman farmers, yeomanry, as well as odds and ends "craftsmen" who might be present (although you need the income tables from HARNWORLD to determine their entire gross incomes). Last but not least, the Manor holder's income is determined not only by the lands he holds directly in his personal demense, but also from the fees, rents, and fines generated by the tenants themselves to the Lord.

The product basically not only gives all of these "accounting" details, but also gives a reasonably well done synopsis of village life, village officers (reeves, woodwards, herder, beadle, ect), and even has some recipies for making maslin bread and "country ale" no less. :)

What is also included in the product's "accounting" aspect are the household budgets for the nobles - such as kennels, mews, and of course, the ubiquitous stables. :)

Which ends this brief overview. If anyone is interested, I would be happy to open a new thread about Harn Manor, discussing it in more detail. I would even be willing to create a Village outright, using harnic constants, so that people can see what it is capable of and what it is not capable of.

One more thing - sort of a warning about Harn Manor. Although it is pretty detailed and has much in it that I admire as being reasonably accurate, it has some "non-historical" inaccuracies involved. If anything, it shortchanges the Manor holder some income. On the flip side, it also understates it outlay a little to the extent that shortfalls in income are somewhat balanced by shortfalls in outlay ;) All in all though, I would recommend Harn Manor to ANY serious GM looking to expand on a campaign tool for use with GURPS.
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Old 07-19-2008, 01:26 PM   #15
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding
Doesn't this create a problem for knight characters built on a budget? Also should the value of the mount really be that much more than the riders arms and armor, or the ransom value of the knight himself?
Knight character built with wealth below Filthy Rich should be having problems.

An ahistorical fantasy knight with a warhorse and harness but no land to support him should be looking at Ally and/or Signature Gear for his horse and equipment.

As for arms and armour, I allow Fine and Very Fine armour, so the finest plate harness can reach $100,000 easily. Fine Plate harness would be more typical, but that's still going to cost $10,000+.

Ransom values don't figure large in my usual gaming, but I note that ancient Romans were ransomed for sums that reach millions of GURPS $ if we use the values for the sestertius given in GURPS Rome. If I remember correctly, a possibly apocryphal legend about Caesar indicates that some pirates charged a standard price for non-senatorial members of noble families that was about $60,000.
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Old 07-19-2008, 04:33 PM   #16
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding
Doesn't this create a problem for knight characters built on a budget? Also should the value of the mount really be that much more than the riders arms and armor, or the ransom value of the knight himself?
Icelander's right. Historically there was no such thing as a knight with a budget. If you didn't meet minimum wealth requirements then you couldn't be a knight. Its as simple as that. GURPS will let you get around that with things such as Signiature Gear. I like Shawn's suggestions and also encourage him to expand this thread into an e23 publication.
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Old 07-19-2008, 11:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by safisher
Er, the stocking rates of horses is very well known. Depending on grass quality, horses can completely forage on 1-5 acres (assuming a 1,000 lb. horse). An acre of really good grass will feed a horse year round. Assume about 4 tons per acre, and 4 tons consumed per horse per year.
The in-kind figures are not for mounds of hay but represent EVERYTHING needed to maintain the horse. Stable, tack, the pin on the baron door that wears out. Harn Manor abstracts that for all the major components of a Manor including Kennels, etc. The same principle for the allocations for a Ostler or the lord. The in-kind figure represents the total amount of support needed not the food consumed. To go much more in-depth with Harn Manor would be make it unplayable.

Also are you citing modern or historical figures? While Medieval husbandry was not that much worse than the modern era when you factor everything you needed a far greater share of your resources to maintain your horses.
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Old 07-19-2008, 11:17 PM   #18
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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Originally Posted by tshiggins
That 750 acres includes the land needed to grow the oats (in an inefficient two-field system, plowed by oxen), plus the costs of replacement tack and harness, maintenance of stables, and stuff such as that. Seems a bit high, to me, as well, but it is meant to cover all costs -- not just grazing.
This just a rough rule of thumb. If you crunch it with a more detailed set of rules (like with Harn Manor) you will get a better figure.

Don't forget while lord may only need a smaller amount of acreage for fodder he need the labor to harvest that. That labor needs food.

The best analogy is take a caravan of mules. When you calculate the number of mules you need to haul your good then you have to add what you need for the mules themselves. Which require more mules. So you may find that 1 in 4 of your mules are hauling fodder and other stuff for the other mules.

The same way with a manor. You got fences, tack, barns, an Ostler to pay and support. The 750 acres and the Harn Manor figures represents the total package.
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Old 07-19-2008, 11:18 PM   #19
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewoman
Can't say that I have much experience with horses, but I have noticed that no one has mentioned Running skill. This should help with fatigue loss while traveling long distances.
Quite right, of course.
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Old 07-19-2008, 11:22 PM   #20
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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Originally Posted by hal
One more thing - sort of a warning about Harn Manor. Although it is pretty detailed and has much in it that I admire as being reasonably accurate, it has some "non-historical" inaccuracies involved. If anything, it shortchanges the Manor holder some income.
It doesn't handle special resources well like say a copper mine, or a mill. It also doesn't handle the economics of towns and cities very well. But for the village manor it is superb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal
On the flip side, it also understates it outlay a little to the extent that shortfalls in income are somewhat balanced by shortfalls in outlay ;) All in all though, I would recommend Harn Manor to ANY serious GM looking to expand on a campaign tool for use with GURPS.
It also standalone, and comes with four worked examples of different Manor. You can also use it to generate Manors of standard sizes for world building. I did this for my Majestic Wilderlands Campaign. I started at 1,000 acres and make a worksheet for each manor size up to 5,000 acres. So I know how much money they made for their lords, how much scutage they gave. And various other economic information. Then when I generated the regional data I calculated based on how many of each size of manor was present.
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