Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-21-2018, 11:13 AM   #1
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

This isn't an errata per se but I think it deserves consideration as a potential serious mistake. It seems to me it quite throws off the balance in basic TFT arena combat, and that the issue will be even worse with the advanced rules (projecting from the old AW/AM/ITL) even without the preview of the high-powered new advanced staff spells.

That is, in the basic Wizard preview, it says a figure rolls to hit with a staff against the higher of their DX or IQ. In an arena combat game that aims to have balance between figure designs, this seems like a big problem because IQ isn't affected by armor, so there's a new best fighter in town:

ST 8 Staff 1d (16 to hit)
DX 8 (2) Plate armor 5 -5 DX
IQ 16 Large Shield 2 - 1 DX
MA 10 (6)
Staff spell

Even if you ruled that armor DOES affect to-hit rolls with IQ, such a figure will still be better than people trying to use a ST 9 1d weapon.

In the old advanced rules, that could also be a Staff Of Power for 2d damage, and it could be a non-wizard who just learned the IQ 16 Staff Of Power spell because it's the best weapon skill for high-IQ people:

ST 8 Staff of Power 2d (16 to hit)
DX 8 (1) Plate armor 5 -5 DX
IQ 16 Tower Shield 3 -2 DX
MA 10 (6)
Staff Of Power spell

Or even if you apply armor penalties to staff to-hit IQ rolls:

ST 8 Staff of Power 2d (13 to hit)
DX 8 (13) Chainmail 3 -3 DX
IQ 16 Small Shield 1 -0 DX
MA 10 (6)
Staff Of Power spell

(If you add the -4 cold iron penalty on top of that, almost the same design can be done with leather armor and a medium shield - maybe better as it has MA 8.)

Compare to (now-inferior previously-very-good) warrior design without staff spell:

ST 12 Broadsword 2d (12 to hit)
DX 12 Small Shield 1 -0 DX
IQ 8
MA 10

And then there's (hopefully) the Aimed Shots optional rule, which means that even for non-munchkin high-IQ wizards you start to get the issue that not only can they hit with IQ, they can break your arm or skull more easily than a great fighter by virtue of their high IQ being used for a to-hit roll (unless you added an exception where staffs for some reason can't take aimed shots).
Skarg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 11:43 AM   #2
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

Given that you roll vs. DX to cast spells, I'm also pretty down on the idea of an IQ based roll for the staff attack. If it survives the next weeks of revisions, I will certainly house rule this as a DX roll.
larsdangly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 11:44 AM   #3
hcobb
 
hcobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

Remember that Wizards are at -9 to attack while wearing iron plate armor as per WSRB 7.
__________________
-HJC
hcobb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 12:06 PM   #4
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Remember that Wizards are at -9 to attack while wearing iron plate armor as per WSRB 7.
As I wrote, even if you do apply armor DX penalties and cold iron -4 to the IQ roll, it's still overbalanced:

ST 8 Staff 1d (13)
DX 8 (5) Leather armor 2 -2DX
IQ 16 Large Shield 2 -1DX
Staff spell

is a wizard with 15 spells yet is 1 point better than a dedicated rapier fighter, too.

ST 9 Rapier 1d (12)
DX 15 (12) Leather armor 2 -2DX
IQ 8 Large Shield 2 -1 DX

And an ITL wizard (or non-wizard with a spell and various talents) can be

ST 8 Staff of Power 2d (12)
DX 8 (4) Leather armor 2 -2DX
IQ 16 Tower Shield 3 - 2DX
Staff of Power spell

vs.

ST 12 Broadsword 2d (12 to hit)
DX 12 Small Shield 1 -0 DX
IQ 8

There are weaknesses to the design, but my point is the comparative stats show some ways that the balance gets thrown by using IQ to hit with a staff (especially a Staff of Power).
Skarg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 12:13 PM   #5
RobW
 
RobW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

Uh oh

Yes, this does look like a serious balance problem
RobW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 12:14 PM   #6
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Given that you roll vs. DX to cast spells, I'm also pretty down on the idea of an IQ based roll for the staff attack. If it survives the next weeks of revisions, I will certainly house rule this as a DX roll.
I agree. I'm more open to casting spells against IQ than swinging a staff against IQ.
platimus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 12:17 PM   #7
hcobb
 
hcobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

Dedicated rapier fighter shield bashes the Wizard.

Game over.

As for rolling IQ for spells, how about this:

If a Wizard is the subject of his own spell and fails the DX roll to cast it, he is allowed an IQ roll to realize his mistake. If he makes the IQ roll he gets to reroll the DX roll. If any of these rolls were automatic rather than simple failures then apply the automatic failure effects.
__________________
-HJC

Last edited by hcobb; 09-21-2018 at 12:21 PM.
hcobb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 12:36 PM   #8
RobW
 
RobW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

SOme of you might remember the reaction to proposed ITL staff rules, eg in the thread, "Re: Reactions to the new staff spells"

Progression of staff mastery meant that staffs were IQ-based for hit progressing progressing to to-hit bonuses progressing to automatic success, didn't require an action to attack (or defend if you'd rather), penetrated armor, could be used at distance, had bonus damage, PLUS held mana to replace fatigue from casting. Plus plus immune to breaking PLUS immune to drop weapon.

Several people were hoping these rules might be scrapped or heavily nerfed, but IQ-based attacks in Wizard suggests not?

Err... I, for one, WELCOME our new IQ 16 Staff Mastery Wizard Overlords.

I'm just a harmless fine plate covered warrior! Don't hurt me!
RobW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 12:45 PM   #9
RobW
 
RobW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

In all seriousness, what problem do you think this new rule is trying to solve?

The only "problem" I can think of that this addresses is, that high-IQ wizards are not effective in melee combat.

But do we really *need* high-IQ wizards to be more effective melee fighters?

The whole TFT system is about balances and tradeoffs. The proposed ITL staff mana rules make ST something of a dump stat for wizards, and if anything, IQ-based to hit rolls reduce rather than increase the importance of wizard DX.
RobW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 12:47 PM   #10
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
As for rolling IQ for spells, how about this:

If a Wizard is the subject of his own spell and fails the DX roll to cast it, he is allowed an IQ roll to realize his mistake. If he makes the IQ roll he gets to reroll the DX roll. If any of these rolls were automatic rather than simple failures then apply the automatic failure effects.
That's too complicated and not entertaining to me. If he fails the first DX roll, that's it. He failed.

Last edited by platimus; 09-21-2018 at 01:06 PM.
platimus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.