First thoughts on D&D 4th edition

[Gamer_Zer0]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

I think the attempt to emulate an MMORPG is a mistake. Why play a knock-off MMORPG at the table when you can play a real one on-line? They would probably be wiser in concentrating their effort on things where MMORPGs don't shine, such as character interaction and role-playing. But I also think SJ is right when he says anyone who enters the RPG business is making horsewhips - sure, they may be very good horsewhips, but the automobile is making its entrance...

hmmm D&D online interesting.....

[Gamer_Zer0]

Originally Posted by Flyerfan1991

Considering that there are probably more people my age who play PNP RPGs than those of college age, I'd better be the target age.

--Mike L.

just curious but what is your age group?

[Flyerfan1991]

Originally Posted by Gamer_Zer0

just curious but what is your age group?

I'm in the first half of the 34-45 age group; the one that was a kid/teen when the Apple II came out, and when D&D first hit the stage. Compared to my younger cousins, I'm less likely to eschew playing a PNP RPG for a MMORPG or a FPS (believe me, I've noticed in my own family settings).

--Mike L.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Flyerfan1991

I'm in the first half of the 34-45 age group; the one that was a kid/teen when the Apple II came out, and when D&D first hit the stage. Compared to my younger cousins, I'm less likely to eschew playing a PNP RPG for a MMORPG or a FPS (believe me, I've noticed in my own family settings).

I'm afraid that we are a shrinking demographic. Very few people start gaming in their 30's but quite a few probably stop (usually due to parenthood or work pressures). If D&D is going to survive they need to market it to the only demographic with any growth, and that is teenagers.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Willis

I've seen people make this utterly silly statement many times. The answer is simple - even with these changes (which I agree make it more like a MMORPG) a PnP game still offers a lot which a MMORPG doesn't. It will continue to do so for the forseeable future.

A big one is variation of content. ...

Another advantage is a changing world. ...

And of course as Pmandrekar mentioned there is the physical setup of it - actually getting together with friends. ...

Quote cut down for sake of avoiding repetition, but I think I kept the major points.

And quoting for truth, here. I get the distinct impression people are confusing some "characteristic elements of game design, which seem to have been polished extensively by MMO designers" with "MMOs". WoW, Everquest, Age of Conan, and all the rest STILL have game mechanics, just like tabletop games.

Some of these game mechanics have concepts that are useless for tabletop RPGs - the sheer amount of grotesque number crunching that goes on in WoW combat would make it an utter failure as a PnPRPG. As an MMORPG it can get away with having attributes in the hundreds, derived attributes getting percentage based on a combination of yet another derived rating looked up on a chart, and having those attributes change constantly during a fight.

However, other things, like having lots of specific abilities with linked cooldowns (giving you basically at will, per encounter or limited uses per encounter, and per dungeon or per day abilities) are a GAME MECHANIC. There's nothing in that concept that makes it "A MMO thing". GURPS has had this concept as an optional modifier for a while - heck, take a bunch of powers, put them in an Alternate Ability group, and give them varying Takes Recharge times, et Voilla. There's nothing in that concept that's particularly new, it's just that MMOs have shifted towards using it heavily. I've seen it heavily showcased in Final Fantasy too, and I've used it in GURPS. I tell you what, it's a fun idea, and my hat goes off to the guy who pushed to make it a core concept for 4e. With all the fuss out there, it sounds like this makes 4e the first PnPRPG to really make this core and exploit it to the maximum - and that's pretty cool.

The healing surge mechanic, a concept that's also got a lot of ranting, doesn't seem to have any connection to MMOs at all.

A lot has been said, sometimes hysterically, about threat and aggression mechanics - there's really not much to speak about here in D&D 4e. Some of the classes have explicit abilities that mindcontrol the target into focusing its attacks on them. Woooooooo. This is just as goofy as all the other magical abilities floating around, and this one is pretty damn handy without being yet another "kill the monster" power. It requires the players to co-operate and think to make anything out of it, so thumbs up.

More is being said, also at times hysterically, about the description of roles, both for PCs, and monsters. Newsflash: this is something that was developed by MMORPG players, when they were working on tactics. There's nothing in this concept that has anything specifically to do with MMORPGs as a medium - it's a conceptual aide for people to help understand what the hell is it they're supposed to do with all these fancy powers. There's a big help to thinking about your role in a group - but I'll tell you something else learned from MMORPGs - "hybrid" or "nonstandard role" characters can be really damned effective.

Ninja class characters in FFXI make excellent "defenders" - but the game designers were trying to make them "strikers" (tanks and DPS, to use the MMORPG terms). Players just found a different way to play the class that worked really well. The 4e classes don't seem any more restrictive than that, and they certainly aren't more restrictive than the 3e or god help you 2e classes were.

There's nothing in D&D4e that FORCES everybody into the expected roles - The default configuration fits into one of the roles, but I should expect it to! It makes it an easy way to explain what everyone DOES in the game to a new player, makes it easy to pick up and make an effective PC with a clear job to do, and makes it easy to get on with the fun.

Yes, they've cut out multi-classing as was done in 3e. BECAUSE IT WAS BROKEN AND WEIRD. The new approach is interesting, but I can't say much more about it than that because I've just glanced over it.

Similarly, the roles for monsters are an ENORMOUS AIDE to GMs - giving you a quick and easy way of figuring out what exactly it is the designer expected you to do with the monsters. Nothing forces you to use them as the designer expected, but some times you just don't have time (or energy) to spend thinking up clever things to do, and having a lot of advice is GOOD.

[Flyerfan1991]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm afraid that we are a shrinking demographic. Very few people start gaming in their 30's but quite a few probably stop (usually due to parenthood or work pressures). If D&D is going to survive they need to market it to the only demographic with any growth, and that is teenagers.

Except that they're competing with computers/videogames/cellphones/whatnot for the teen's money, and those of us in the 30's actually have the money to afford the books.

--Mike L.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Flyerfan1991

Except that they're competing with computers/videogames/cellphones/whatnot for the teen's money, and those of us in the 30's actually have the money to afford the books.

Well I'm in your demographic, and I don't have enough money to replace the vast numbers of new gamers that WOTC hopes to attract. Are you willing to buy D&D books at $100+ a book, or whatever it would take to make say SJ Games market share as profitable as WOTC's? Besides if the industry giant doesn't work to attract new gamers, there eventually won't be any tabletop gaming, at all.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Flyerfan1991

Except that they're competing with computers/videogames/cellphones/whatnot for the teen's money, and those of us in the 30's actually have the money to afford the books.

--Mike L.

I think if nothing else, computers, videogames, cellphones, junk food, music, ringtones, trendy clothing (which, I note, is usually worn for months, not years), and whatever proves that teenagers have an almost bottomless budget for frivolous things. They have a remarkable ability to restructure their finances for whatever new thing catches their attention - usually by at least temporarily declaring something else "uncool" and completely abandoning it and often by spending themselves "bankrupt" and then nagging their parents to top them off again.

Adults, on the other hand, tend to live with stricter budgets, and less ability to have free money thrown at us if we overstretch our finances.

[Flyerfan1991]

Okay, Bruno, you've pretty much called us all out for bitching about 4e. Here's some stuff I like about 4e to show that I don't think everything blows chunks.

-The more I've read on the backstory of the Eladrin, the more I like them. They are a bit closer to Tolkienesque High Elves (and the regular Elves closer to the Tolkienesque Sindarin and Wood Elves), and they seem the perfect group to provide hooks for various campaign threads. The Feywild itself is closer to a Shakespearean Midsummer Night's Dream viewpoint than anything in the past, and such an angle lends itself well to even the occasional Deus ex Machina (with a price) as well.

-The backstory of the Dragonborn makes me think of them as the Klingons of the default D&D world. They are very proud, very honor driven, and are great warriors. They are stateless, so they wander the world much like the Melniboneans did.

-I do like the concept of rituals, which removes a lot of the Vancian memory system.

--Mike L.

[Flyerfan1991]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I think if nothing else, computers, videogames, cellphones, junk food, music, ringtones, trendy clothing (which, I note, is usually worn for months, not years), and whatever proves that teenagers have an almost bottomless budget for frivolous things. They have a remarkable ability to restructure their finances for whatever new thing catches their attention - usually by at least temporarily declaring something else "uncool" and completely abandoning it and often by spending themselves "bankrupt" and then nagging their parents to top them off again.

Adults, on the other hand, tend to live with stricter budgets, and less ability to have free money thrown at us if we overstretch our finances.

The teens still have to get the money from somewhere; if they don't have a job, there's the bank of mom and dad. If money is tight for mom and dad, it'll be tight for the kids too.

--Mike L.