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Old 04-14-2017, 08:58 AM   #1
Gigermann
 
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Default [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry

I've been doing some study on HEMA, and historical usage of the European-type two-handed sword (montante/spadone/zweihander/etc.), and have encountered a situation that RAW doesn't model well (in my opinion). Specifically, "deflections"; see reference video.

This is clearly a response to an attack, that is, a Parry. By RAW, the most sensible mechanic is a Parry, followed by a Beat (MA100), then an attack—but this is too slow and clunky for what's pictured here (which is in practice; would be much faster in combat)—and would allow the opponent a chance to attack/respond in between. One could use a Rapid Strike instead, but a -6 to both doesn't feel right to me here. Either case disqualifies (I think) a Counterattack Technique on the follow-up (which requires a successful defense to precede it).

By RAW, an Aggressive Parry (MA65) isn't available for weapon-based attacks, but I think that's what this is. It is a response to an attack (Parry), and is a deliberate attempt to batter the opponent's weapon (Aggressive Parry defends at -1, and if successful, may attack the weapon). That said, it seems unlikely to result in an un-Ready weapon ("Knocking a Weapon Away," B401); Beat (Feint alternative) does seem like the correct mechanic for the result. As a Parry, one could follow up with a Counterattack as normal.

Therefore, my solution is to allow the Aggressive Parry Technique/option for weapon v weapon attacks under the usual mechanics, and either allow or require a Beat (in lieu of damage) on a successful attempt to "damage" the weapon. Much smoother. Potential downside: will probably get used a lot—but that's maybe not so bad.

Better ideas? Unintended consequences?
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Old 04-14-2017, 09:18 AM   #2
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Default Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry

Sure, the move might be a little faster in combat -- but not a lot, as you're still moving around a 5-foot piece of steel at arm's length. And the moves are taking 2-3 seconds in the video (not counting the part of the Parry before the blades make contact); even if you speed them up by a factor of three, they'd just meet regular GURPS combat pacing. I'd just leave it as Parry and an Attack on a later turn.

If you want to use another existing mechanic, see Riposte (MA124). (You already mentioned Counterattack.) That term might be a fencing term, but the mechanic itself seems appropriate -- penalize your own parry to gain a penalty to the opponent's defense on your next attack.
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Old 04-14-2017, 09:39 AM   #3
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Default Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry

Silly me. Didn't think to actually time the video. It's definitely ~1sec for the first-attack+parry/deflection, then ~1sec for the follow-up.

Actually, Riposte isn't bad. It's potentially much weaker than the Beat, but in combat, the deflection would be "resisted" more than in practice. Wish I had thought of that.

And that's why I asked :P
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:34 AM   #4
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Default Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
The idea of using aggressive parry (or jolt) and trading your free attack on the limb for a free beat sounds interesting.

These attacks normally do less damage so a similar penalty should apply to the beat if allowed.

The problem with riposte... Isn't that purely skill and DX based? Allowing a parry-beat options up new high speed defensive options to high ST low DX chars.
I always thought that Beat, as written, was a bit weird, in that you can (for example) Parry, then the opponent can attack you with that weapon/etc, and then you perform a Beat against it. I realize this can be "corrected" in narrative after-the-fact, I just don't really like it. YMMV.

Whether or not it applies to the situation above—Riposte does feel about right in that case—I can't think of any good reason why one should not be able to do an Aggressive Parry weapon v weapon in the first place. Secondly, a strong impact results in an "equal and opposite reaction," which we refer to as Knockback when it applies to the body. It would logically also apply to a struck weapon, knocking it back, resulting in what we would refer to as a Beat (which, incidentally, would mechanically be the same thing as a "Knocking the Weapon Away" Disarm attempt).

Were we talking about GURPS 5e here, I'd be suggesting getting rid of Beat entirely as a Feint option, allowing Aggressive Parry against weapons, and treating any damage-dealing attack on a weapon/shield as a (old) Beat.
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:04 AM   #5
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Default Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry

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Originally Posted by Gigermann View Post
I always thought that Beat, as written, was a bit weird, in that you can (for example) Parry, then the opponent can attack you with that weapon/etc, and then you perform a Beat against it. I realize this can be "corrected" in narrative after-the-fact, I just don't really like it. YMMV.
The strictly turn-based nature of GURPS leads to all manner of oddities. One of my favorite examples is Judo Throw. The fluff for that is meant to be the foe throws a punch, you Judo Parry it, then use that arm and the foe's momentum to throw him to the ground. In practice, it's possible for the foe to throw a punch at you, have you Judo Parry it, have him punch at someone else with the same hand (Rapid Strike), use that hand to Parry a couple attacks from your friends, and then somehow have you use that punch to throw him to the ground.

Honestly, Beats, Feints, and Ruses probably make more sense with you either throwing them as part of a Wait or a Rapid Strike (a reduced penalty on the latter would make a good deal of sense) or similar - you need to throw off the opponent's defense, then immediately capitalize on this.

If I ever get around to completing my most recent Overhaul article, an overhaul of these mechanics might be next...
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Old 04-15-2017, 12:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry

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Originally Posted by Gigermann View Post
I always thought that Beat, as written, was a bit weird, in that you can (for example) Parry, then the opponent can attack you with that weapon/etc, and then you perform a Beat against it. I realize this can be "corrected" in narrative after-the-fact, I just don't really like it. YMMV.
I House Ruled it being a Technique, default: Parry -1, Skill -1; Hard; cannot exceed prerequisite Parry or Skill. The parry option is if used as a Parry. If made as an attack option, I treat Beats as they are (mostly):

It may be used as an attack option against a weapon or shield: however the victim must successfully Parry or Block. Grapple uses are unchanged.

I also House Ruled it to apply to either the attack or defense, initiator's choice (I do the same with Feint).

Last edited by evileeyore; 04-15-2017 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 04-15-2017, 08:46 PM   #7
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Default Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigermann View Post
I always thought that Beat, as written, was a bit weird, in that you can (for example) Parry, then the opponent can attack you with that weapon/etc, and then you perform a Beat against it. I realize this can be "corrected" in narrative after-the-fact, I just don't really like it. YMMV.
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:16 PM   #8
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Default Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry

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Been long enough I had forgotten about those :P
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:31 AM   #9
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Default Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry

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your first link is wrong. This is the correct link:
https://gamingballistic.com/2013/07/...ter-of-inches/

The link to the first post that is in your second blog post is also wrong (in the exact same fashion), I suspect it's always been wrong but no one has noticed it until now.
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Old 04-16-2017, 06:41 AM   #10
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Default Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
your first link is wrong. This is the correct link:
https://gamingballistic.com/2013/07/...ter-of-inches/

The link to the first post that is in your second blog post is also wrong (in the exact same fashion), I suspect it's always been wrong but no one has noticed it until now.
Blogger to WordPress migration fail. Will fix.
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