04-14-2017, 08:58 AM | #1 |
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oklahoma City
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[MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry
I've been doing some study on HEMA, and historical usage of the European-type two-handed sword (montante/spadone/zweihander/etc.), and have encountered a situation that RAW doesn't model well (in my opinion). Specifically, "deflections"; see reference video.
This is clearly a response to an attack, that is, a Parry. By RAW, the most sensible mechanic is a Parry, followed by a Beat (MA100), then an attack—but this is too slow and clunky for what's pictured here (which is in practice; would be much faster in combat)—and would allow the opponent a chance to attack/respond in between. One could use a Rapid Strike instead, but a -6 to both doesn't feel right to me here. Either case disqualifies (I think) a Counterattack Technique on the follow-up (which requires a successful defense to precede it). By RAW, an Aggressive Parry (MA65) isn't available for weapon-based attacks, but I think that's what this is. It is a response to an attack (Parry), and is a deliberate attempt to batter the opponent's weapon (Aggressive Parry defends at -1, and if successful, may attack the weapon). That said, it seems unlikely to result in an un-Ready weapon ("Knocking a Weapon Away," B401); Beat (Feint alternative) does seem like the correct mechanic for the result. As a Parry, one could follow up with a Counterattack as normal. Therefore, my solution is to allow the Aggressive Parry Technique/option for weapon v weapon attacks under the usual mechanics, and either allow or require a Beat (in lieu of damage) on a successful attempt to "damage" the weapon. Much smoother. Potential downside: will probably get used a lot—but that's maybe not so bad. Better ideas? Unintended consequences?
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The Art of D. Raymond Lunceford, The Daniverse: Core Group Annex The Daniverse Game Blog |
04-14-2017, 09:18 AM | #2 |
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry
Sure, the move might be a little faster in combat -- but not a lot, as you're still moving around a 5-foot piece of steel at arm's length. And the moves are taking 2-3 seconds in the video (not counting the part of the Parry before the blades make contact); even if you speed them up by a factor of three, they'd just meet regular GURPS combat pacing. I'd just leave it as Parry and an Attack on a later turn.
If you want to use another existing mechanic, see Riposte (MA124). (You already mentioned Counterattack.) That term might be a fencing term, but the mechanic itself seems appropriate -- penalize your own parry to gain a penalty to the opponent's defense on your next attack. |
04-14-2017, 09:39 AM | #3 |
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oklahoma City
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Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry
Silly me. Didn't think to actually time the video. It's definitely ~1sec for the first-attack+parry/deflection, then ~1sec for the follow-up.
Actually, Riposte isn't bad. It's potentially much weaker than the Beat, but in combat, the deflection would be "resisted" more than in practice. Wish I had thought of that. And that's why I asked :P
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The Art of D. Raymond Lunceford, The Daniverse: Core Group Annex The Daniverse Game Blog |
04-15-2017, 10:34 AM | #4 | |
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oklahoma City
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Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry
Quote:
Whether or not it applies to the situation above—Riposte does feel about right in that case—I can't think of any good reason why one should not be able to do an Aggressive Parry weapon v weapon in the first place. Secondly, a strong impact results in an "equal and opposite reaction," which we refer to as Knockback when it applies to the body. It would logically also apply to a struck weapon, knocking it back, resulting in what we would refer to as a Beat (which, incidentally, would mechanically be the same thing as a "Knocking the Weapon Away" Disarm attempt). Were we talking about GURPS 5e here, I'd be suggesting getting rid of Beat entirely as a Feint option, allowing Aggressive Parry against weapons, and treating any damage-dealing attack on a weapon/shield as a (old) Beat.
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The Art of D. Raymond Lunceford, The Daniverse: Core Group Annex The Daniverse Game Blog |
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04-15-2017, 11:04 AM | #5 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry
Quote:
Honestly, Beats, Feints, and Ruses probably make more sense with you either throwing them as part of a Wait or a Rapid Strike (a reduced penalty on the latter would make a good deal of sense) or similar - you need to throw off the opponent's defense, then immediately capitalize on this. If I ever get around to completing my most recent Overhaul article, an overhaul of these mechanics might be next... |
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04-15-2017, 12:23 PM | #6 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry
Quote:
It may be used as an attack option against a weapon or shield: however the victim must successfully Parry or Block. Grapple uses are unchanged. I also House Ruled it to apply to either the attack or defense, initiator's choice (I do the same with Feint). Last edited by evileeyore; 04-15-2017 at 12:26 PM. |
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04-15-2017, 08:46 PM | #7 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry
Quote:
Grand Unified Beat Theory 2
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04-15-2017, 11:16 PM | #8 | |
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oklahoma City
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Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry
Quote:
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The Art of D. Raymond Lunceford, The Daniverse: Core Group Annex The Daniverse Game Blog |
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04-16-2017, 01:31 AM | #9 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry
Quote:
https://gamingballistic.com/2013/07/...ter-of-inches/ The link to the first post that is in your second blog post is also wrong (in the exact same fashion), I suspect it's always been wrong but no one has noticed it until now. |
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04-16-2017, 06:41 AM | #10 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: [MA] Deflections, and Weapon v Weapon Aggressive Parry
Quote:
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