At what size do giants need the Dependency (Mana) advantage?

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by mjj1976

...
But neither does that rule out your argument on biology. The largest giants could indeed benefit from both methods: inhman proportions for better performance, plus the ability to metabolize mana for tougher bodies, stronger muscles, and/or lower sustenance requirements. But again: what guidelines should we go by? (I've not yet seen an objection to the suggestions I made.)

You just need something stronger than bone and something stronger than muscle. I doubt earth based life really hit the biologically based materials' nail on the head perfectly.
There probably are better materials that earth life just never "discovered" or couldn't have achieved through realistic evolution.

A major reason life doesn't use iron except in tiny portions is because of the enormous amount of energy required to liberate it from oxides. But a deep ocean vent mollusk did it and has an iron sulphide shell.

Magic created giants to make use of it, but their basic existance doesn't require magic. They may need magic to supplement their enormous appetites. Just make them able to digest cellulose and the world becomes their dinner plate. Of course they greatly prefer meat, but can subsist on tree bark if necessary.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by mjj1976

(Are there obections to the method I suggested?)

For the most part, I rather like it. The only thing is that a lot of people's views of giants and the like involve them eating a larger quantity of food than humans. Of course, this is generally directly proportional, whereas such a large organism could in reality require proportionally more food than a normal-sized human, so having the proportion retained as a function of the mana present works just fine.


Personally, I don't think the biological explanations for the possibility of giants over SM+2 (or low SM+3) work very well. Human body proportions are good for the size humans are, but if things get too much larger they're going to need to use quite different schemes to get away with it - and thus they aren't going to resemble humans. Dwarves are a similar matter - once you get fairly tall, the proportions used by dwarves aren't going to work for much longer. The "dwarven-build" cut-off might be more around SM+3 than SM+2, but keep in mind that the dwarven-build results in creatures that are one SM larger than their height would indicate, so the height cut-off would pretty much be the same.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Magic created giants to make use of it, but their basic existance doesn't require magic. They may need magic to supplement their enormous appetites. Just make them able to digest cellulose and the world becomes their dinner plate. Of course they greatly prefer meat, but can subsist on tree bark if necessary.

If they're realistically too large for their build, their basic existence does require magic. Many organisms that make use of aerobic respiration evolved to forms that require the efficiency of aerobic respiration (over anaerobic) in order to survive. Humans are dependant on oxygen in much the same way giants would be dependant on mana, since they evolved (or were created, depending on the world) to make use of mana in order to allow their existence.

The cellulose idea is a good one, although without some constant supply of mana to readily convert the cellulose into a more digestible sugar you would end up having to drastically change the biology of the giant. There's a reason ruminants need (essentially) multiple stomachs, after all. On a more humorous note, ruminating giants can also mean that storming a poorly-supplied giant stronghold would end up being quite unpleasurable.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

...
The cellulose idea is a good one, although without some constant supply of mana to readily convert the cellulose into a more digestible sugar you would end up having to drastically change the biology of the giant. There's a reason ruminants need (essentially) multiple stomachs, after all. On a more humorous note, ruminating giants can also mean that storming a poorly-supplied giant stronghold would end up being quite unpleasurable.

Super acidic stomachs like that of the hyena plus more efficient enzymes to break down cellulose in more reasonable time frames is highly implausible but perfectly possible.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

If they're realistically too large for their build, their basic existence does require magic. ....

But what makes them too large for their build IS biology and that can be easily tweaked to allow a larger realistic build.
Think of magic as advanced genetic engineering and see how the impossible becomes possible. Real world life forms leave a lot to be desired and adjusted. Evolution is nice but FAR from perfect.

[mjj1976]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

For the most part, I rather like it. The only thing is that a lot of people's views of giants and the like involve them eating a larger quantity of food than humans. Of course, this is generally directly proportional, whereas such a large organism could in reality require proportionally more food than a normal-sized human, so having the proportion retained as a function of the mana present works just fine.

Something I was considering is to separate the effects into two groups: increased power/durability and decreased sustenance requirements. That would require a mana level for each level of either effect, but it might make it too difficult to build the really big giants.

By the way, the method could also be used to represent heroes of normal size, who, perhaps due to divine/magical parentage, can metabolize mana and be stronger/tougher than normal humans.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

But what makes them too large for their build IS biology and that can be easily tweaked to allow a larger realistic build.

That's getting close to making elementals and golems. But at that point, why bother about a magic Dependency at all? Just build the things with Ultra-Tech and Bio-Tech instead.

Think of magic as advanced genetic engineering and see how the impossible becomes possible. Real world life forms leave a lot to be desired and adjusted. Evolution is nice but FAR from perfect.

If you want to take the mysticism out of magic, then that method is fine. I assumed, however, that we were referring to the kind of intangible, inexplicable stuff, though.

[Erik_Nielsen]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

That is less clear than it might be. Does he mean that the internal organs will crush themselves under their own weight or something like that?

Very few of the internal organs are directly supported by bones. The brain might be about it.

Or maybe it's something about the compressive strength of bone but whatever his reason is it needs to be explained in the book.

What is less clear that it needs to be? My explanation? Kakalios' explanation in the book? I can't do much about the latter, but I can try to do justice by clarifying the former:

Kakalios says that given the size relative to the mass of the bones, the sheer weight of a skeleton of a human-proportioned giant over 60' tall will crack the leg bones of said giant.

Past this, you'll need to read the book and draw your own conclusions.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

The only thing is that a lot of people's views of giants and the like involve them eating a larger quantity of food than humans. Of course, this is generally directly proportional, whereas such a large organism could in reality require proportionally more food than a normal-sized human.

No. In accordance with Kleiber's Law metabolic rate goes with the 3/4 power of mass. ie. mice have a higher metabolic rate per unit mass than elephants.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

No. In accordance with Kleiber's Law metabolic rate goes with the 3/4 power of mass. ie. mice have a higher metabolic rate per unit mass than elephants.

When you get much bigger than elephants, it's probably better to go totally ectothermic and save even more energy. Mass will act as a preserver of heat and maintain a constant internal temperature without burning loads of food.

[Carnivorous Bean]

I kind of like the idea of a giant biped looking a bit bizarre, myself. ;)