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Old 03-22-2017, 05:00 PM   #71
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Ideas for Anti Robot Technology

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Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
I wasn't defending that one. I was defending the point that the robots are not as intelligent as humans on average.
Was someone arguing otherwise? There's no question that losing communications would be detrimental to a robot force, but they're easily smart enough to handle basic things on their own.
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:01 PM   #72
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Default Re: Ideas for Anti Robot Technology

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Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
Sure...to the degree the programmers (i.e. the Z-minds and AUs) could foresee such things.
The fact the NU's lack* any form of Indecisive implies they've been programmed well enough not to fall for such tricks. If you want to give them a limited form of Indecisive to render them vulnerable, of course, or even just treat them as though they have it without bothering to fully define it (they aren't PC's, and probably aren't available as Allies or Enemies), feel free, but it doesn't seem likely to be the default.

It also seems like a pretty stupid programming error, and one I'd expect the Zoneminds to catch and correct shortly after it gets exploited the first time.

*I don't have any RoS books, so am just going off the comments of others here.
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:10 PM   #73
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Default Re: Ideas for Anti Robot Technology

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Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
Sure...to the degree the programmers (i.e. the Z-minds and AUs) could foresee such things.
That's reflected in advantages/disadvantages and IQ; success at an appropriate roll (and if humans don't need a roll, absent appropriate disadvantages, neither do robots) means things are foreseen or the decision trees are generic enough to cover the situation.
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:13 PM   #74
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Default Re: Ideas for Anti Robot Technology

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
This is the example Anthony was characterizing as "cinematically dumb" and which I pointed out is something that IQ 1 insects can handle fine, and therefore is the example you appear to be defending.
Actually, IQ1 insects don't handle it fine- when presented with a difficult decision, they tend to.... do nothing (which is good from a survival standpoint, they don't waste energy and avoid potentially dangerous situations.)
http://theconversation.com/what-bees...decision-20099

The important part about my scenario was that the humans, knowing how the dumbot weighs target values, assures that both targets have the same value- so that the bot goes into a situation of 'wait for the numbers to change and chase that one'. It won't be an easy task, because if the numbers squew (one target becomes further away then the other, causing the nearer target to be the 'better' number).

Another important factor is that, under normal circumstance, the dumbot does not actually get frozen when given two eaqual value targets- it calls the nearest AU for a decision, so the dumbots logic string might be something along the lines of:
1. Evaluate targets and assign a value.
2. Chase the highest value
3. If there are two equal value targets wait 3 seconds and repeat 1.
4. If you have already done 3 call an AU for target priority, assign preference value to AU identified target and repeat 1.
5. If no answer from AU wait 3 seconds, then repeat 1.

Under pretty much all non-engineered circumstance this will do just fine, for 99% of circumstance one target will have a better score then another, and that one gets chased. For 99% of the 1% of situations waiting will have a superior target reveal. For 99% of the 1% or the 1% of situations an AU can give priority. For 99% of the 1% of the 1% of the 1% of situations waiting 3 seconds will either result in a superior target being identified, or the AU being able to answer.
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:15 PM   #75
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Default Re: Ideas for Anti Robot Technology

Absent puzzles about "awareness", a preying mantis can handle this problem with IQ 1. A simulation of preying mantises can too, so it doesn't really seem to be a problem for p-zombie mantises.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 03-22-2017 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:21 PM   #76
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Default Re: Ideas for Anti Robot Technology

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Actually, IQ1 insects don't handle it fine- when presented with a difficult decision, they tend to.... do nothing (which is good from a survival standpoint, they don't waste energy and avoid potentially dangerous situations.)
http://theconversation.com/what-bees...decision-20099
"I can only catch one thing to eat at a time" can't be a difficult decision for any predator brain that isn't maladaptive.

And most NUs have higher IQ than insects.

Quote:
The important part about my scenario was that the humans, knowing how the dumbot weighs target values, assures that both targets have the same value- so that the bot goes into a situation of 'wait for the numbers to change and chase that one'. It won't be an easy task, because if the numbers squew (one target becomes further away then the other, causing the nearer target to be the 'better' number)
That seems to make it a very easy task. It will simply chase the closest or slowest one absent higher instruction and once it has selected a target it will tend to persist.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 03-22-2017 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:41 PM   #77
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Default Re: Ideas for Anti Robot Technology

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
The important part about my scenario was that the humans, knowing how the dumbot weighs target values, assures that both targets have the same value- so that the bot goes into a situation of 'wait for the numbers to change and chase that one'.
The bots aren't that dumb. I mean, sure, you can probably pull that off against typical MMO mob AI, but that's spectacularly dumb. Bots with the stats of RoS bots would be resolved like humans: 'make an IQ or tactics roll to decide what to do'. Yes, bots are sometimes gonna fail and be indecisive. So will humans.
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Old 03-22-2017, 06:13 PM   #78
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Default Re: Ideas for Anti Robot Technology

Quote:
Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Actually, IQ1 insects don't handle it fine- when presented with a difficult decision, they tend to.... do nothing (which is good from a survival standpoint, they don't waste energy and avoid potentially dangerous situations.)
http://theconversation.com/what-bees...decision-20099
Perhaps I missed something there, but from what I read, the bees didn't hover in place like idiots - if they had the ability to opt out, they often did so (meaning they had three options, and found the opt out option to be the best, thus not pertinent to our example of all the best solutions being equal), while if they didn't, the article indicates they still made a choice. A bee with two equal choices will simply pick one - why should we assume an IQ 9 killbot won't do the same?

Quote:
Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
1. Evaluate targets and assign a value.
2. Chase the highest value
3. If there are two equal value targets wait 3 seconds and repeat 1.
4. If you have already done 3 call an AU for target priority, assign preference value to AU identified target and repeat 1.
5. If no answer from AU wait 3 seconds, then repeat 1.
More likely:
3. If there are more than 1 targets of highest value, determine priority target randomly.

At the very least, step 3 would be when they call in for help, and probably take a defensive posture while waiting for a response (instead of standing around waiting for a HEAT missile to the face). It would probably confer with nearby NU's first, probably going with the consensus target (that is, it errs on the side of backing up its squad). If the other NU's are equally split, similarly stuck, fail to respond, or if it's alone, it would attempt to contact the AU in charge of it. Failing that, it makes a random choice.

Last edited by Varyon; 03-22-2017 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 03-22-2017, 10:25 PM   #79
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Default Re: Ideas for Anti Robot Technology

Some more of the sort of trick guerilla groups might try, that might or might not work in any given case:

1. Poison the fuel. That is, try to introduce a contaminant into a storage supply of fuel for the robots, or their lubricants, or something else that the robots introduce into their own systems.

2. False flag attack. This works best if you've got some of the sort of humans who 'capture' robots working with you, like the 'Lori' character from the book. Capture/reprogram some combat robots, rig them up so they look and seem like robots belonging to another Z-mind (which would have to include the recognition signals), and ambush some robots belonging to a different Z-mind. Set it up right and you might trick them into going to war with each other, or at least pounding away for a bit until it's all sorted out.

2a. Use the same trick to make a Z-mind think one of its supervisor units at a robofacs has gone rogue.

3. Make a general habit of blowing maglev lines, roads, and so forth, not with a specific goal in mind so much as to disrupt logistics.
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Old 03-23-2017, 12:01 AM   #80
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Default Re: Ideas for Anti Robot Technology

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Originally Posted by kdtipa View Post
The above portion of an earlier post made me think of something too. It's not just that the bots will have to manage those needs, but also that the supplies and transport methods might be more vulnerable than the bot-squad itself. Raiding supply lines, or sabotaging them might be very useful in weakening an invading force of robots.

Also, do I remember correctly that this campaign is a supers campaign too? The PCs have access to super powers? That opens up a whole lot of options. Someone with enough telekinesis could do horrible things to robots. Or someone like Kitty Pryde from X-Men could probably win the war by herself.
Yes my specific campaign has the PCs as superheroes of about the same power scale as Spider-Man or Batman. Most of their human allies are mundane so I am interested in tactics for them as well.
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