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Old 05-01-2011, 08:03 AM   #51
Kuroshima
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

By the way, I just realized that since the sacrifice has to be willing, and understand what he's getting into, duress might not be the best way of obtaining them, mainly because they can go through the motions, and then, at the point of no return, chicken out, as facing death or severe weakening should be a traumatic experience, and can make them flinch away. This might twist the ritual into something slightly different from what the caster intended, justifying the quirked ritual idea you guys have been toying with.
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Old 05-01-2011, 08:20 AM   #52
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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By the way, I just realized that since the sacrifice has to be willing, and understand what he's getting into, duress might not be the best way of obtaining them, mainly because they can go through the motions, and then, at the point of no return, chicken out, as facing death or severe weakening should be a traumatic experience, and can make them flinch away. This might twist the ritual into something slightly different from what the caster intended, justifying the quirked ritual idea you guys have been toying with.
I operate under the idea of No Take Backs, once the process has begun. You willingly said yes, the magic confirms you said yes once before it starts, it doesn't keep checking to see if you changed your mind once it has begun.
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Old 05-01-2011, 08:39 AM   #53
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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I operate under the idea of No Take Backs, once the process has begun. You willingly said yes, the magic confirms you said yes once before it starts, it doesn't keep checking to see if you changed your mind once it has begun.
It's not technically a take back, it's just that the energy isn't pure, and quirks the ritual.
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Old 05-01-2011, 10:08 AM   #54
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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I think Sunny is referring to socialization; people are conditioned to behave a certain way at first by their parents and siblings, then by teachers and peers, etc at first by immediate reward of food, contact, and praise, then by coporeal punishment or deprivation, then time out and peer pressure, etc. As the motivations become progressively more remote, people feel they are more in control in general, and feel freer to make their own choices, but there are still ultimately consequences to sufficiently unpopular behavior that are under the immediate control of other people, so you can say, "People do X from fear of punishment for doing otherwise."

You can of course decide for yourself that you want to do X from your principles and moral convictions rather than fear of punishment and use that basis to justify your actions, but then I can say, "You are espousing principles and morals from fear of the social punishment for being treated like someone without principles or morals."

But I would never disrespect a person's ethical stance that way , except that I fear being denigrated for contributing to the denial that people act to avoid punishment.
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As an accurate-enough-for-conversation-purposes, this works. Thanks!
That is a very thought provoking take on society. I kind of like it. Still allows for non-coerced choices though. Really, its the "all choices" part that I'm arguing. Again, my choice to respond as a counter example.
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Old 05-01-2011, 04:07 PM   #55
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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I operate under the idea of No Take Backs, once the process has begun. You willingly said yes, the magic confirms you said yes once before it starts, it doesn't keep checking to see if you changed your mind once it has begun.
The process doesn't start for the sacrifice until the second the caster actually goes to touch them and take the energy, though. If the caster takes any time to set up the ritual between getting your promise of cooperation, or touches a few of your peers before you and you see them start to collapse, that's plenty of time to change your mind, and RPK has already stated that magical compulsion of any kind invalidates the 'willing' part of the equation.
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Old 05-01-2011, 04:29 PM   #56
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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The process doesn't start for the sacrifice until the second the caster actually goes to touch them and take the energy, though. If the caster takes any time to set up the ritual between getting your promise of cooperation, or touches a few of your peers before you and you see them start to collapse, that's plenty of time to change your mind, and RPK has already stated that magical compulsion of any kind invalidates the 'willing' part of the equation.
Right. And when you touch them to draw energy, the magic asks itself "Does <this person> understand <this>? Does <this person> agree to offer sacrifice?".

If the answer is "Yes, <this person> understands. Yes, <this person> agrees." Then <this person> is a willing sacrifice and energy is drawn.

If <this person> isn't a willing sacrifice, the caster gets a "nothing happens" and knows <this person> isn't willing. None of the unwilling's energy, intent, will, etc, gets into the spell.

The magic only asks itself once. Upon the caster touching the sacrifice and attempting to draw energy. Once the process of drawing energy begins, the magic doesn't keep asking itself. It is too late for <this person> to change their mind unless they refused, and then only if the caster touches and attempts to draw off them again.
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Old 05-01-2011, 05:18 PM   #57
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Right. And when you touch them to draw energy, the magic asks itself "Does <this person> understand <this>? Does <this person> agree to offer sacrifice?".

If the answer is "Yes, <this person> understands. Yes, <this person> agrees." Then <this person> is a willing sacrifice and energy is drawn.

If <this person> isn't a willing sacrifice, the caster gets a "nothing happens" and knows <this person> isn't willing. None of the unwilling's energy, intent, will, etc, gets into the spell.

The magic only asks itself once. Upon the caster touching the sacrifice and attempting to draw energy. Once the process of drawing energy begins, the magic doesn't keep asking itself. It is too late for <this person> to change their mind unless they refused, and then only if the caster touches and attempts to draw off them again.
While that's certainly the simplest way to interpret the (very short) rule in MH1, I don't know that it's the most interesting, or necessarily the only way to interpret it. After all, if you've ever seen somebody do a spit take or realize that they've been victims of a practical joke, you know for a fact that a person's mental state can go back and forth between extremes several times in the course of a single second; therefore, if the process of tapping energy takes the full second/turn and is not instantaneous, one can well imagine that a few targets could flip-flop from willing to actually willfully opposing in the course of that same second. Maybe that wouldn't interrupt the damage being done to the sacrifice but would color the effect of that energy. Seems like it could be a fun way to house rule it even if RPK comes back to say such was not the intent.

Anyway, even if you're 100% correct and it's all or nothing, energy pulled for the desired purpose or complete fizzle, even that has issues for the naughty witches using these techniques. First off, they have to not only threaten the sacrifices with something that will actually make them willing to sacrifice their own lives (and traumatize those who find that their instinct for self-preservation overrides their love of family in some cases), they also have to explain at least in general terms what the ritual is for, because "the person must understand the implications of what they’re
doing". That kind of lets out rituals to kill everybody in the world, since such rituals would affect the hostages anyway. And then they have to hope that they read each sacrificial victim properly and none of them fizzle on them, since it doesn't seem from a rereading of the rules that it's legal to interrupt the gathering of energy to make attempts to further persuade them; they're going to need spares.

Seems like the 'willing sacrifice rule' is really meant more for the good guys and maybe for Jim Jones-like charismatics, while the 'unwilling sacrifice' rules to be given in MH3 are more relevant to what naughty witches can pull off.
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Old 05-02-2011, 09:47 AM   #58
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Kuroshima
By the way, I just realized that since the sacrifice has to be willing, and understand what he's getting into, duress might not be the best way of obtaining them, mainly because they can go through the motions, and then, at the point of no return, chicken out, as facing death or severe weakening should be a traumatic experience, and can make them flinch away. This might twist the ritual into something slightly different from what the caster intended, justifying the quirked ritual idea you guys have been toying with.
That was Rev, I think, riffing off my idea that coerced subjects not count as "willing". That still seems like the way I'd go, just based on what is in Champions, but I'm waiting to see the rules for Unwilling Sacrifices from the next book.
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Old 05-03-2011, 05:09 AM   #59
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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And on the third tentacle, there's the thought 'I'm invoking cosmic consciousness every time I use my Clean spell or light a candle?'
Maybe we could translate the double-slit experiment or one of the other classic quantum mechanical exercises into something that would test this theory. "My assistant is now casting Zombie on the box with Dr Schroedinger's cat in it...."

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That is a very thought provoking take on society. I kind of like it. Still allows for non-coerced choices though. Really, its the "all choices" part that I'm arguing. Again, my choice to respond as a counter example.
Sure, your choice, as far as you know. But there could be some forgotten childhood trauma that your mind has adapted to by simply not pursuing certain lines of thought in certain directions. Or something you do remember, but has some unconscious associations.
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