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Old 04-29-2011, 06:18 PM   #11
kenclary
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
I don't think the coercion case is compatible with the common understanding of "without reluctance" if you're dealing with impersonal forces like most spell magic, and with respect, "by choice" is a value judgment more suitable to be made by the placated or petitioned being than given a blanket treatment by a supplement writer. Feeders on dark emotions might reward decisions under duress equally or more generously than the virtuous unsolicited martyrdom that would impress a more paternalistic, moral divinity.
Magic/psionic coercion violates "by choice" insofar as someone else is pulling the puppet strings. If the person was a PC, would you ask the player "do you do X, and suffer the consequences, or do you do Y, and suffer the consequences?" If their mind is controlled, you wouldn't ask them, you would ask the controller, and thus they are not willing.

(Sure, this dodges around any philosophical notions about whether or not free will exists.)

More interestingly, what about attempting to subject a target to delusions that they must willingly sacrifice or be subject to arbitrarily bad consequences?
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Old 04-29-2011, 06:49 PM   #12
vitruvian
 
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Novembermike View Post
It's still a free choice. You can let them kill your family member. The only time I would consider it out of your control is if you don't agree and it happens anyway.
It's true that you still have a choice if somebody is threatening a loved one or even if they're threatening to kill you. However, it definitely fits the definition of coercion.

co·er·cion


–noun 1. the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.

2. force or the power to use force in gaining compliance, as by a government or police force.

The case where you voluntarily sacrifice yourself in order to save somebody else does not fit the definition, because nobody is trying to force you into compliance with their wishes. The enemy is trying to kill the somebody else and doesn't actually want you to forestall them, the target may want to be saved but has no means of forcing compliance, and your friend who may be casting the spell (in the examples we're looking at) with your life force is not forcing you, but offering you the option.
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Old 04-29-2011, 07:22 PM   #13
Sunrunners_Fire
 
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

Thanks, everyone. Much appreciated. ^^
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Old 04-29-2011, 08:27 PM   #14
Novembermike
 
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
It's true that you still have a choice if somebody is threatening a loved one or even if they're threatening to kill you. However, it definitely fits the definition of coercion.
Is there a coercion exception?
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Old 04-29-2011, 08:42 PM   #15
Sunrunners_Fire
 
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Is there a coercion exception?
Nope. Not according to RPK's post. Coercion is explicitly allowed. Mind Control isn't.
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Old 04-29-2011, 11:28 PM   #16
jeff_wilson
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by kenclary View Post
Magic/psionic coercion violates "by choice" insofar as someone else is pulling the puppet strings. If the person was a PC, would you ask the player "do you do X, and suffer the consequences, or do you do Y, and suffer the consequences?" If their mind is controlled, you wouldn't ask them, you would ask the controller, and thus they are not willing.
I'm not disputing that, of course mental compulsion removes the agency for choice. But arguably so does duress "Put your hand in the demon's mouth or I will destroy your family, " and trickery "I dropped my keys in this statue's mouth and I can't reach them, can you take them out for me?" I started a thread bearing on this subject recently, but the mods closed it.
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Old 04-29-2011, 11:39 PM   #17
Sunrunners_Fire
 
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
I'm not disputing that, of course mental compulsion removes the agency for choice. But arguably so does duress "Put your hand in the demon's mouth or I will destroy your family, " and trickery "I dropped my keys in this statue's mouth and I can't reach them, can you take them out for me?" I started a thread bearing on this subject recently, but the mods closed it.
The character possesses the ability to choose between a series of actions and inaction. They are not required to like any of their available choices, it is only required that they retain the ability to choose. Mind Control, for these purposes, takes away your ability to choose.
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Old 04-29-2011, 11:48 PM   #18
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by kenclary View Post
More interestingly, what about attempting to subject a target to delusions that they must willingly sacrifice or be subject to arbitrarily bad consequences?
I was looking for some fine lines here too.
Can Enslave? or any other spell emulate the effects of psychology/religion in creating participants willing (eager?) to sacrifice themselves? if so, which spells can?
Can a powerful Foolishness apell and a little Fast Talk get the job done? What about Mindlessness? (let me sacrifice you and I'll give yuo this toy!)
Bravery?
Loyalty? (I think the 'very dangerous' clause ends the spell, but can the recipient be convinced sacrifices aren't dangerous? perhaps a step to a higher plane?)
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Old 04-30-2011, 03:44 AM   #19
Michael Cule
 
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

It depends.

It depends upon who is judging the subject's willingness and how and the precise effects of the mind control.

If the mind control just makes the person stand up there and say 'Yes, I'm willing!' without affecting their internal feelings about it then that just won't work.

Assuming it rewrites the subject's mental state sufficiently to make them actually believe that they are willing to do this then it depends on how deep the deciding person or mechanism or spell goes. A surface probe will say yes, this person is willing. A deep probe or the sort of cosmic awareness you expect from a god will not.

You have to have a clear idea in your head how the effect works.
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Old 04-30-2011, 03:59 AM   #20
Sunrunners_Fire
 
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Michael Cule View Post
You have to have a clear idea in your head how the effect works.
Magic, that which is testing against the rule, is an infallible cosmic awareness both world- and time- spanning.

Allowing it to be otherwise merely means that there never will be an unwilling sacrifice and that we can discard the rules coming out in MH3, as I can work out the ritual for any effect to any degree of precision that you care to specify as being required to weasel my way past the "willing sacrifice" requirement.

Assuming that either magic or the casters are stupid isn't going to go anywhere useful. :)
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