Weapon Master for Guns

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Don't guns deal enough damage already?

The person who invented the S&W 500 didn't think so. :-)

It's a valid point. A single hit to the vitals with the typical 3d wound of a handgun (9mm: 2d+2 pi; .45ACP 2d pi+ = 3d wounding; .40S&W is 2d+1 or 2d+2 pi+; etc) is an average of 30pts of damage, enough for a one-shot insta-kill.

Three rounds to the Torso is the same thing, and that's with a paltry little handgun. :-)

With a serious offensive weapon (a rifle) you're in the 5d-7d range for most military weapons, and you don't have to work THAT hard to get 7d-10d out of a bolt-action rifle. Those are widowmakers without special effort.

[Kalzazz]

Well, an average person takes 60pts of damage to kill outright

[Natael]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Well, an average person takes 60pts of damage to kill outright

Yes, but 30 is enough to call for a death check and a KO check, plus with shoddy first aid and depending on bleeding out rules, they're gone, or at least useless. Of course, that same rifle with 6d to the vitals is going to do 63 damage on average, so that will kill outright.

[Kalzazz]

Isnt 30 enough for 2 death checks as well as the KO check? If they have 10

87.5ish% chance of dropping them outright, maybe

I dont think their useless though if they arent dropped outright, they may be stunned, and have a chance of succumbing to KO every round, and have shock penalty for first round after being hit, but can still return fire just fine aside from that

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Isnt 30 enough for 2 death checks as well as the KO check?

Yes. Yes it is.

It will also force a Knockdown roll, so they'll almost certainly not be continuing to do ... whatever they were doing.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Well, an average person takes 60pts of damage to kill outright

I don't really think the issue is how quickly you can kill someone. It's that a guy with a sword needs to be in melee range, working his way past your parry defense, and even then deals a couple of dice of damage, and needs to spend lots of points on ST, Weapon Master and Power Blow if he wants to do more.

A guy with a gun is already dealing that much damage out of the box, at a range, that cannot be parried or blocked, and often (with high RoF weapons) can barely be dodged.

I think Weapon Master, as it stands, is GURPS's feeble attempt to make bringing a sword to a gun fight, in a cinematic game, something less than complete stupidity.

[davidtmoore]

To be fair, I think Gunslinger plus WM (Pistol) isn't unreasonable given that archers can do Heroic Archer plus WM (Bow). It isn't exactly RAW, and I'd probably not allow it, but it's not wildly inconsistent.

WM would give damage bonuses, allow cinematic skills (in a game where the GM didn't just give cinematic skills to Gunslinger) and allow the improved Rapid Strike rules for PCs wanting to shoot separate targets with a pistol rather than just use the ROF>1 rules. There's overlap, especially with the options in Gun Fu, but the GM can allow them to stack beneficially (much as HA + WM(B) stack) or just apply the bonus once and let the player waste some points.

Cinematic skills especially could be fun. Breaking Blow to shoot through weaknesses in rigid armour, Pressure Points to paralyse targets with artful shots, Push to blast someone through a window with a shotgun, etc. Silly, but no worse than some Hollywood films I've seen.

Although as has been mentioned, if this isn't a cinematic game then WM is out anyway; it's an inherently cinematic advantage. It's also really only appropriate in a game where you want the gun to be the be-all and end-all.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

... what is this "enough" damage? Is it anything like explosive damage?

It is the GM telling you that you really have no chance at survival and he is not going to bother rolling the dice.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Doesn't apply to bows, which cannot Rapid Strike.

Bows can Rapid Strike. See Rapid Readying/Rapid Firing, Martial Arts and Dungeon Fantasy. Bows can also Dual Weapon Attack (sort of).

It involves a silly amount of dice rolls, at big penalties. Heroic Archer halves them, as does Weapon Master.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Not really. Heroic Archer is Gunslinger for bows. Weapon Master (Bow) and Heroic Archer have some overlap (in the Quick Shooting rules, IIRC) where they stack but otherwise do different things. Weapon Master is mainly about the Damage Bonus.

True. You can now perk your way to learning cinematic skills, which was the other appeal of WM.