Rolls for players looking to fund a new major religion

[AlexanderHowl]

I tend to have important NPCs benefit from Indominable and Unfazeable, since they are both mundane mental advantages, especially when the NPCs are antagonists (who are usually motivated by their own beliefs or vices rather than external factors). Minions are easily swayed while masterminds are immune to influence rolls and reaction modifers. In the case of 500+ point characters, most of their antagonists will also be 500+ point characters, so 30 points for Indominable and Unfazeable is not unreasonable.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

It's pretty self explanatory: What expenditures, skills and rolls would you require a player to do in order to achieve this kind of titanic feat?

I would require an entire campaign, not just a few rolls and spending some money.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

All right, but how is meaningful conflict possible in this story? If you have a character with +8 to reactions, their worst reaction roll is Average, their typical one is Very Good, and half the time they get Excellent, which makes for cultlike devotion, as if they had fallen head over heels in love. The point of telling a story is usually conflict; conflict is what creates drama. Is the whole point of this character just to have them advance from triumph to triumph, acclaimed by great masses of people and disliked by no one? Because that doesn't seem like an interesting campaign to run. It's suitable as a wish-fulfillment daydream, maybe, but those are usually dull for other people to hear about.

And for me, at least, playing in a campaign means sometimes facing challenges I'm not sure I can overcome, and being tense and keyed up. Never having the possibility of that seems like it would get dull.

She still fails up to an average of fourteen times before being able to succesfully "found" that religion though.

Originally Posted by Daigoro

It seems to be a campaign with a party of 700 point normals, which already implies a fair amount of wish fulfilment. It's a common and valid enough campaign mode that the GM seems happy to run, so presumably the challenges in the campaign will suit the characters' power level.

Nah! The normals are about 50 points at age 25, but there are options to play cheese haha

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

She only gets +8 against people who she is performing for and who have no reason to distrust her. Just because someone gives me a good show is not going to have me give their opinions any additional weight (the reaction bonus from Born Performer will have me admire their performances, but it does not extend beyond that). As it says on Campaigns, p. 495, 'never substitute random die rolls for reason or logic', and there is no particular logical reason why a stage magician should be treated as anything but a stage magician, especially if they are as unpleasant as the character in question.

Aye! Although the bonus from Born Performer does extend beyond that... however, she still needs to perform before gaining it.

Originally Posted by whswhs

That would be a more persuasive argument if the OP did not persist in arguing that there is no reason for anyone to hate or mistrust the character.

No, no, I don´t insist that there are no reasons to hate or mistrust her, THERE ARE, she has Enemies such as The Media and Rival Companies. And she also has got several ways to mess up, such as Trickster, Kleptomania, Compulsive Gambling... I just think that it´s enough with that, and that in no case if the player succeeds a roll it should be treated as a failure.

Originally Posted by johndallman

Not when Wiccans ask her questions about things they've told the Goddess in prayer, and she doesn't know the answers.

She has Fortune-Telling [12]-18 with Elicitation [6]-23. Are you sure?

Originally Posted by whswhs

There's a difference between a story that includes wish fulfillment and a story that's nothing but wish fulfillment. Classic soap operas, for example, have characters almost entirely played by people much better looking than average, with the focal characters rarely being merely Attractive. And yet those characters still have conflicts and struggles and unfulfilled love; in fact the stories are almost entirely about the ways in which their wishes are NOT fulfilled.

And I'm not saying that you can't have such a campaign for a character such as the one this thread seems to be about. I'm saying that I don't see what the intended challenges are, or the intended conflicts, and the character description seems to make it difficult to come up with them. So I'd like to see a discussion of this point.

She will probably fail up to fourteen times before being able to succesfully "found" that religion. And we´re talking about two years of exclusive training devoted to Theology and Religious Ritual ahead now before even being able to try for the first time, which would be thirteen years if she wasn´t such a monster.

Originally Posted by copeab

Indeed, I'm more interested in talking to the GM to get a rough idea of what he has in mind. Are there more characters like the PCs in the setting? Are there equally powerful, nut not nearly as broken, NPCs? Apart from these characters, how does the setting differ from the real world?

Characters don't exist in a vacuum but that's how the OP's character is being presented.

Some TL9 inventions have been developed at x10 their cost and very limited availability. The rest is basically the same.

Originally Posted by hal

If you have access to it, look up the rules for the use of memetic engineering as well GURPS BOARDROOM AND CURIA. The one set should help with creating organizations and recruiting for it, the other to indicate the ebb and flow of the religion on society- right down to percentages of population being affected. Toss in conflicting religions responding against the new one, and you have a structure for your campaign.

Just a thought

Aye! I did look the Boardroom and Curia, where are the memetic engineering rules?

Originally Posted by ericthered

These are pretty good suggestions. There is a set of rules on this, and while they're a niche part of Gurps, they're actually fairly well supported, boasting multiple books. It helps to see someone actually use them before you try it yourself, of course, just like combat.






I am usually the GM in these things, and I'd totally be winging it, estimating penalties depending on the exact circumstances.



The Invention roll would probably have a difficulty equal to a bonus to the leadership roll, perhaps at -3 per bonus with an additional -2 for making anything at all. So for an +2 idea you must roll against -8.



The core leadership role to build a group devoted to you is somewhere between -6 and -10, depending on opposition levels, effective population base, and what membership requires of its members.


For the rate of growth I'd probably look into the social engineering books for a number.



The "split attention penalty" I'd probably say is a -2.



The "Size" roll probably is -1 per multiple of 10 past 100, but I'd probably want to do more math before committing to that scheme.


But this is just me making up numbers quickly to create a base. None of this is RAW, it just a healthy exercise of rule 0 using the tools I've been given.

Hey! Could you please tell me where are these rules aside of Infinite Worlds, Boardroom and Curia and Social Engineering? Thank you!

Originally Posted by hal

Adding to ericthered's thoughts...

Page 345-6 have TASK DIFFICULTY modifiers with descriptors added in. Something that is Very Hard to achieve might be classified as either of -6 or -7. On the other hand, something that is easy might qualify under +4 or +5.

One thing you might want to consider where it comes to reaction rolls? Keep a note of the original roll without the modifiers to it. Some people react poorly to people who are more ascetically pleasing to look at, or they might have issues with people who are wealthier. The initial unmodified roll might indicate those who secretly resent their "betters" (whether perceived or social) and either work against the person when not in their company, or actively start working against them in a subtle fashion. Biting comments despite seemingly friendly, or what have you.

As a good rule of thumb? Pick ONLY the best reaction modifier from a single group as the one that truly modifies the reaction of an NPC, while the others help reinforce the public reaction. Thus, someone whose reaction modifier totals might be +8 from different aspects, might only gain a +3 bonus from their best thing, and rolling a 5 on a reaction tabled modified to a +13 for the public reaction, but only an 8 on a private one - gives the GM some latitude to determine how their NPC's personally react.

No GM likes to have to detail "Jealous" as an attribute ahead of time, but if you go with the die rolls guiding you, you can adjust for those "Reaction Monsters" without cheating them of their hard spent character points.

This is a bit weird. Does Charisma 5 Appearance/Average get the same modifier than Charisma 5 Appearance/Transcendent?

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I tend to have important NPCs benefit from Indominable and Unfazeable, since they are both mundane mental advantages, especially when the NPCs are antagonists (who are usually motivated by their own beliefs or vices rather than external factors). Minions are easily swayed while masterminds are immune to influence rolls and reaction modifers. In the case of 500+ point characters, most of their antagonists will also be 500+ point characters, so 30 points for Indominable and Unfazeable is not unreasonable.

Exactly! And here there are trainable levels of Resistant (Indomitable/Unfazeable).

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by Þorkell

I would require an entire campaign, not just a few rolls and spending some money.

Yes, it should take up to five years, which would be seventeen years if she wasn´t such a monster XD

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Aye! I did look the Boardroom and Curia, where are the memetic engineering rules?

Memetic engineering is part of the Transhuman space line, specifically in Toxic Memes, which is technically a 3e book.

Hey! Could you please tell me where are these rules aside of Infinite Worlds, Boardroom and Curia and Social Engineering? Thank you!

City Stats, Pyramid 54 (social engineering), and mass combat.

Also, the support in campaigns is actually pretty good: when I outlined my strategy in the step by step post I was mostly using rules from campaigns and philosophy from a myriad of sources (including a historic personal interest in how religions start).

The biggest inspiration for the route I gave you was the Daily administration part of city management article Pyramid 54, and a similar roll in City Stats under the heading "Long Term Fighting". Even then, a lot of inspiration should go to Mailanka's Orphans of the Stars, which helped me understand the system and how to let characters interact with it in non-intuitive ways.


The key is to understand how to make job rolls interesting and how they can be used to require continuous effort. And then start making up numbers.

If you GM organizational games for a while (I'm a year into my first) you start to get a feel for it.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

She has Fortune-Telling [12]-18 with Elicitation [6]-23. Are you sure?

Yes, because they know that she's a stage magician and are therefore alert to her trying to read them. The marvelous success of crowd-based Fortune-Telling works because it's vague enough to match somebody. Once she claims to be their Goddess, many of them will become extremely sceptical.

[DocRailgun]

So, she's spending like 30 years trying to found a religion? How do you model "failing" to found a religion? When does the character know ICly when they can start the attempt again? Certainly one does not just not gain worshippers and say "well, back to the drawing board" one morning.

Originally Posted by Alonsua

She still fails up to an average of fourteen times before being able to succesfully "found" that religion though.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Memetic engineering is part of the Transhuman space line, specifically in Toxic Memes, which is technically a 3e book.

City Stats, Pyramid 54 (social engineering), and mass combat.

Also, the support in campaigns is actually pretty good: when I outlined my strategy in the step by step post I was mostly using rules from campaigns and philosophy from a myriad of sources (including a historic personal interest in how religions start).

The biggest inspiration for the route I gave you was the Daily administration part of city management article Pyramid 54, and a similar roll in City Stats under the heading "Long Term Fighting". Even then, a lot of inspiration should go to Mailanka's Orphans of the Stars, which helped me understand the system and how to let characters interact with it in non-intuitive ways.


The key is to understand how to make job rolls interesting and how they can be used to require continuous effort. And then start making up numbers.

If you GM organizational games for a while (I'm a year into my first) you start to get a feel for it.

Checked. Some of this looks real cool so I'll try to implement it all together.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Yes, because they know that she's a stage magician and are therefore alert to her trying to read them. The marvelous success of crowd-based Fortune-Telling works because it's vague enough to match somebody. Once she claims to be their Goddess, many of them will become extremely sceptical.

...? So social skills stop working as intended when people become sceptical?