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Old 05-18-2018, 05:40 AM   #1
scc
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default [Magic] Staffs And Enchanting

OK, one trick that some people don't seem to catch is that as a Staff can be up to six feet long you can put a Powerstone at each end and they won't interfere with each other's recharging. Now presumably you can draw upon both of these for a single spell, breaking the normal rule of one Powerstone per spell.

Now this on it's own is very powerful as you're doubling your recharge speed and significantly cutting cost.

But for enchanting, which is so highly limited by energy this could be very attractive.

Which brings me to my question: Can I use a Staff with embedded Powerstones to enchant? If so are there any limitations?
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Old 05-18-2018, 06:44 AM   #2
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Default Re: [Magic] Staffs And Enchanting

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Originally Posted by scc View Post
OK, one trick that some people don't seem to catch is that as a Staff can be up to six feet long you can put a Powerstone at each end and they won't interfere with each other's recharging. Now presumably you can draw upon both of these for a single spell, breaking the normal rule of one Powerstone per spell.

Now this on it's own is very powerful as you're doubling your recharge speed and significantly cutting cost.

But for enchanting, which is so highly limited by energy this could be very attractive.

Which brings me to my question: Can I use a Staff with embedded Powerstones to enchant? If so are there any limitations?
You can't use more than one Powerstone to power a spell because that's a limitation on Powerstones. It has nothing to do with how close or far apart they are from each other. A wizard who is 6'4" could wear a powerstone in his hatband and another on his boot with 6' of separation and they'd recharge at full rate, but he still couldn't use both of them in the same spell.

Dedicated powerstones provide twice as much energy when used to cast spells by or through the relevant magic item. None of the Enchant spells can be Enchanted into an item so that you can the spell by the item, so that's out.

It isn't clear if you can cast Enchantment spells through an item enchanted with the Staff spell: the effects of the Staff spell (p 13) mostly deal with Regular, Area, and Melee spells, and Enchantment spells are a different class. Let's assume you can, using the default magic item economics on pages 20-24 of Magic:

A circle of 6 mages can create Q&D items of up to 60 energy for about $1/energy at the rate of 22 items per week.

A lone wizard with a Staff item ($30) and a 25 point dedicated Powerstone ($12,000) can create a Q&D item of up to 60 energy every 25 days. It takes an hour of his time ($4). Assuming he wants to pay off the item in 5 years, he needs to make $12,000 + $30 + $4 * 5 * 365 / 25, or $12,322 by selling the 73 items he created - or $170 per item. So this is not a good solution for making money.

However, if you're a lone wizard on an island with nothing but your trusty Staff and 10 available FP, you can could create a 6 energy Dedicated Manastone in about a day's work and use that to cast Powerstone. Without the Dedicated Manastone, you'd need a 10 energy Manastone, and that would take 2 days to create. So if you don't have access to a circle of mages and you need to rebuild your wizardly tools, Dedicated Staff Manastones are useful.
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Old 05-18-2018, 06:53 AM   #3
hal
 
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Default Re: [Magic] Staffs And Enchanting

Regards to a 6' staff being able to mount 2 powerstones without their interfering with each other, I'd suggest that you run that past your GM for their approval. It is, after all, their campaign world. While I am a firm proponent of allowing GMs the right to wander off the reservation as the see fit (ie ignore rules as written in favor of something else) - if the question is "rules as written, is this approach valid", then my response to your question(s) are as follows:

1) up to 6' or 72" means that it may not exceed the limit. As such, a staff that is 72.25" in length would exceed the limit. Ever wonder how gemstones are mounted in rings? Now, if your powerstone is made of metal and fastened around the ends of the precisely 72" staff, the the cornerstones can not be able to physically be further than the 72" recharge limit required by powerstones.

2) "Since a wizard can only use one Powerstone at a time, a large Powerstone is more useful than a handful of small ones." is the key limiting factor prohibiting the use of two powerstones connected by one " staff".

So, as a GM using rules as written, and one of my players proposing as you suggest, my answer to both questions of utilizing two powerstones on a single staff and using two at the same time for any single spell casting would be no.

Conversely, if staves subjected to a STAFF spell can be 80" long and a mage could use as many powerstones as they are physically in contact with?

My answer would be this. "What is good for the goose, is good for the gander. Do you REALLY want me to incorporate this into the game?"
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Old 05-18-2018, 05:10 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Magic] Staffs And Enchanting

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
You can't use more than one Powerstone to power a spell because that's a limitation on Powerstones. It has nothing to do with how close or far apart they are from each other. A wizard who is 6'4" could wear a powerstone in his hatband and another on his boot with 6' of separation and they'd recharge at full rate, but he still couldn't use both of them in the same spell.
It's a quirk of putting them into the Staff, they become one item.

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
It isn't clear if you can cast Enchantment spells through an item enchanted with the Staff spell: the effects of the Staff spell (p 13) mostly deal with Regular, Area, and Melee spells, and Enchantment spells are a different class. Let's assume you can, using the default magic item economics on pages 20-24 of Magic:
I'd assume that you'd have to touch the item being enchanted with the Staff.

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
A circle of 6 mages can create Q&D items of up to 60 energy for about $1/energy at the rate of 22 items per week.

A lone wizard with a Staff item ($30) and a 25 point dedicated Powerstone ($12,000) can create a Q&D item of up to 60 energy every 25 days. It takes an hour of his time ($4). Assuming he wants to pay off the item in 5 years, he needs to make $12,000 + $30 + $4 * 5 * 365 / 25, or $12,322 by selling the 73 items he created - or $170 per item. So this is not a good solution for making money.

However, if you're a lone wizard on an island with nothing but your trusty Staff and 10 available FP, you can could create a 6 energy Dedicated Manastone in about a day's work and use that to cast Powerstone. Without the Dedicated Manastone, you'd need a 10 energy Manastone, and that would take 2 days to create. So if you don't have access to a circle of mages and you need to rebuild your wizardly tools, Dedicated Staff Manastones are useful.
Your assuming that you don't have access to a high mana area to speed recharging. Also this is more useful for getting the absurdly high power items.

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
Regards to a 6' staff being able to mount 2 powerstones without their interfering with each other, I'd suggest that you run that past your GM for their approval. It is, after all, their campaign world. While I am a firm proponent of allowing GMs the right to wander off the reservation as the see fit (ie ignore rules as written in favor of something else) - if the question is "rules as written, is this approach valid", then my response to your question(s) are as follows:
Kromm has specifically allowed it.
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Old 05-18-2018, 06:59 PM   #5
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It's a quirk of putting them into the Staff, they become one item.
If the two Powerstones were now one item they wouldn't recharge independently any longer.

If I was GM I'd tell you "no". I wouldn't even tell you 'Nice try." either. I find your rationale extremely unconvincing.
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Old 05-18-2018, 07:16 PM   #6
hal
 
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Default Re: [Magic] Staffs And Enchanting

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Kromm has specifically allowed it.
Something worth mentioning here...

There is KROMM, and then there is the man behind the moniker who runs his own campaign world as a GM.

If you're after a RAW (Rules As Written) answer, that's one thing. If you're after a "would I let this into my campaign" answer, then be aware they're two different beasts. Case in point - it was once asked if it would be permissible to ignore shaped using area spells where, for example, a two hex radius area spell of 7 hexes, could be cast instead, as a single line of 7 hexes. KROMM the person said yes, but if you asked him in capacity as a RAW mediator, he'd have to say no.

Case in point with that initial yes? A target hex 8 hexes away, for a single hex radius casting, would suffer a -7 spell casting range penalty, a RAW 2 hex radius spell would be -6 to cast (assuming no staff being used to extend the spell caster's personal range), but allowing the use of an equal number of hexes of effect for a single lane of 7 hexes, would suffer only a -1 penalty per the RAW rule that range penalties are calculated from nearest point of effect from caster to edge of area spell's beginning effect.

So, to quote KROMM as allowing something, you need to keep in mind context. Is the answer a RAW answer, or a KROMM THE MAN answer, or even... KROMM the Dungeon Fantasy line editor.

Also note: in the initial original writing of POWERSTONE as a spell, the size of the powerstone in carats, limited how large the powerstone capacity could be. In the 4e rules, one could instead, expend 4x the normal enchantment energy cost, and bypass the need for a gem at all. In theory? One can simply take a wooden 6' stave, cast STAFF on it, then enchant it as a single powerstone. NOT a RAW circumstance for say, GURPS CLASSIC MAGIC.

Note too, that there tends to be the understanding that GURPS GMs can rule their campaign worlds as they see fit, hence the distinction between RAW answers and anything else... ;)

Last edited by hal; 05-18-2018 at 07:18 PM. Reason: I hate autocorrect!
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Old 05-18-2018, 08:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Magic] Staffs And Enchanting

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It's a quirk of putting them into the Staff, they become one item.
The rules for dedicated and exclusive powerstones clearly imply that you can put more than one powerstone in a magic item. They don't imply that two 5 fp powerstones in a magic item suddenly become one 10 fp powerstone when it's convenient to the caster but are then treated as two 5 fp powerstones again when that's more convenient for recharging.

If a staff with a powerstone at each end is enchanted with the Staff spell and the powerstones become one item with the staff with a combined energy reserve of both stones - which is arguable - than there is still only one stone when it comes time for recharging, whether the stones are separated by two inches, 6.5 feet, or 100 yards.

It actually complicates your powerstone recharging, because now your entire staff is a powerstone and will steal energy from any weaker stones that are within 6' of any point of the staff. So no pyramids of power to let 4 powerstones recharge at once in a relatively compact space.

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Your assuming that you don't have access to a high mana area to speed recharging. Also this is more useful for getting the absurdly high power items.
What part of "using the default magic item economics on pages 20-24 of Magic" was unclear?
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Last edited by mlangsdorf; 05-19-2018 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 05-19-2018, 01:31 AM   #8
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Default Re: [Magic] Staffs And Enchanting

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Originally Posted by scc View Post
It's a quirk of putting them into the Staff, they become one item.
I'd like a citation for this.
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Old 05-19-2018, 02:40 AM   #9
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Default Re: [Magic] Staffs And Enchanting

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It's a quirk of putting them into the Staff, they become one item.
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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I'd like a citation for this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GURPS Magic, p. 70.
If a Powerstone is attached to an item before that item is enchanted, the Powerstone becomes a part of the magical item. It is then a “dedicated” Powerstone.
Attaching two powerstones to a Staff before enchanting it with the Staff spell would make the entire item - the staff and both stones - a single magical item. However, just because it is one item doesn't mean that both powerstones can be tapped for a single spell. Hell, theoretically you could attach 100 powerstones to the staff. You wouldn't even need to wait for the recharging, since removing the powerstones only breaks the staff enchantment. So remove the stones, place them for recharging, then reattach them and recast the staff spell. However, the general rule that only one powerstone may be used at a time would still apply.
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Old 05-19-2018, 03:07 AM   #10
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Default Re: [Magic] Staffs And Enchanting

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GURPS Magic, p. 70.
If a Powerstone is attached to an item before that item is enchanted, the Powerstone becomes a part of the magical item. It is then a “dedicated” Powerstone.
That's what I suspect is going on... but Dedicated Powerstones are for powering the magic item, not the user's spells cast using the item to add to his reach.
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