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Old 03-15-2018, 04:31 PM   #11
Alden Loveshade
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#56): Favor

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
They should both be built as Patrons and only including their Wealth and personal Allies, etc, not their stats, unless the second Lord would be likely to personally intervene.
How do you build a Patron on half the PC's points? (And remember my example is in regard to RAW, not in regard to how I can make house rules to change it to what i want. And yes I know there's the "some Patrons won’t fit neatly" bit).
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:35 PM   #12
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#56): Favor

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Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
While I like Favor, I do sometimes have a problem with the cost. Something like the below happened in one of our games.

Imagine getting a favor from two different lords, both equally wealthy and powerful. The favor from each should cost about the same, right?

But let's imagine one of the lords is personally very limited; he's got a bad leg, can't see or hear very well, is in poor health, isn't terribly smart, is homely, etc. But he has wise advisors who run things for him. He's built on half the PCs points.

The other lord is a paragon, strong enough to wrestle bears, a fast runner with keen taste and smell, a professional level dancer, a grand master chess player, very handsome, etc. But he has wise advisors who run things for him. He's built on double the PC's points.

First Lord Cost: Ally (50% PC's points) 2 points, Frequency Roll 9 or less, Special Abilities +50%, Favor 1/5 = 1 point.

Second Lord Cost: Patron (200% PC's points) 15 points, Frequency Roll 9 or less, Special Abilities +50%, Favor 1/5 = 5 points.

Considering both lords have the same wealth and power, is a Favor from the second lord really likely to be five times better than one from the first?
I would not allow the first lord to be bought as an ally. An ally is someone who will personally show up to participate in an adventure. He would clearly be a load in such a role.

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Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
How do you build a Patron on half the PC's points? (And remember my example is in regard to RAW, not in regard to how I can make house rules to change it to what i want. And yes I know there's the "some Patrons won’t fit neatly" bit).
By defining him not as a person but as "a fairly powerful organization" since you are getting the help of his fiefdom, not his help personally.

Last edited by David Johnston2; 03-15-2018 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:39 PM   #13
Alden Loveshade
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#56): Favor

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I would not allow the first lord to be bought as an ally. An ally is someone who will personally show up to participate in an adventure. He would clearly be a load in such a role.
I have to disagree. Allies can be bought as being half the PC's points. "What, you threw the man who stopped that assassin's knife for me in the dungeon? I owe him a great favor--let him out at once!"

In game play, I had a PC who was saved by something very similar to that.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:41 PM   #14
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#56): Favor

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Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
I have to disagree. Allies can be bought as being half the PC's points. "What, you threw the man who stopped that assassin's knife for me in the dungeon? I owe him a great favor--let him out at once!"

In game play, I had a PC who was saved by something very similar to that.
I didn't say I wouldn't allow him as a Contact or a Patron.
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Old 03-15-2018, 05:25 PM   #15
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#56): Favor

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By defining him not as a person but as "a fairly powerful organization" since you are getting the help of his fiefdom, not his help personally....

I didn't say I wouldn't allow him as a Contact or a Patron.
I can see your "powerful organization" point, and think that would work in many cases. But in my example (and in what happened to my PC in game play), the organization was not the patron, the NPC was. My PC specifically did a good deed for a ruler that was secret; the organization knew nothing about it. Only that NPC would help. With an NPC built on half the PC's points, how could you model that as Patron?

And Contacts means 'You have an associate who provides you with useful information, or who does small (pick any two of “quick,” “nonhazardous,” and “inexpensive”) favors for you.' Neither the useful information nor a combination of two of the latter applies to saving my PC's life, which I would not consider a "small" favor.

But I can see Contacts working for it if you fudge on the "small" point.
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Old 03-15-2018, 06:33 PM   #16
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#56): Favor

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Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
And Contacts means 'You have an associate who provides you with useful information, or who does small (pick any two of “quick,” “nonhazardous,” and “inexpensive”) favors for you.' Neither the useful information nor a combination of two of the latter applies to saving my PC's life, which I would not consider a "small" favor.
The difficulty of a favor is relative to the Contact, not the PC. I'd say that, for a noble with power over the court in question, getting a PC off the hook for a crime counts as all three of quick, nonhazardous, and inexpensive (which are the actual criteria provided). If it was someone else's court, and the noble had to actively use their political pull to get the PC off, it might not be easy, but it would still be cheap and safe in most circumstances.

So, in short, I agree with making such an NPC a Contact, rather than an Ally.
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Old 03-15-2018, 06:35 PM   #17
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#56): Favor

Alden Loveshade, sometimes when a person asks a question, he or she must be careful to present it in a neutral manner. In this case, you assert two things in your post that are not true:

1) Favor (Ally) is not the same as Favor (Contact), Favor (Contact Group), or Favor (Patron). Not that I realized such a distinction was necessary until reading your example. ;) I may need to edit the opening post.

2) The two lords presented are not equals. You have made it quite clear that their CP totals are different since one was only half the CP value of the PC's while the other was worth at least 200%. They may have equal influence in their governments, but the traits in question (at least, as used) care about the whole character.

Given how both of these characters were described, you're right, the CP costs may not match the quality of the Favor... or rather, of how the Favor was used in this case. I mean, it isn't 100% clear, but if your comment about him getting someone out of the dungeon is how the Favor from each lord was used... that seems like a waste for either trait.

Unless getting them released was at least two of expensive, hazardous, or time consuming, then Contact or Favor (Contact) could have handled it. If it was at least two of those, okay, then it was still underutilizing what you could get out of Favor (Ally) or Favor (Contact). Oh, and p. B36 does make it clear that an Ally is someone who goes with you on the adventure.
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:01 PM   #18
Alden Loveshade
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#56): Favor

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
Alden Loveshade, sometimes when a person asks a question, he or she must be careful to present it in a neutral manner. In this case, you assert two things in your post that are not true:

1) Favor (Ally) is not the same as Favor (Contact), Favor (Contact Group), or Favor (Patron). Not that I realized such a distinction was necessary until reading your example. ;) I may need to edit the opening post.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in what I meant, but I didn't ever intend to imply that they were the same.

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2) The two lords presented are not equals. You have made it quite clear that their CP totals are different since one was only half the CP value of the PC's while the other was worth at least 200%. They may have equal influence in their governments, but the traits in question (at least, as used) care about the whole character.
Actually, that is the point I was trying to make. The usefulness of a noble as a favor is more likely to come from their social position than from their personal abilities.

To you and others that said they believed Favor (Contacts) was a better choice for my example (and to Kelly Pedersen that having someone released from their own dungeon would typically be a small thing to them), I agree. I think Favor (Contacts) would work better. Thanks!
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:20 PM   #19
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#56): Favor

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Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in what I meant, but I didn't ever intend to imply that they were the same.
Hmm... now I want to be clear on the matter. I hope this doesn't backfire horribly and make things more confusing instead of less. >_<

I was referring to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
Imagine getting a favor from two different lords, both equally wealthy and powerful. The favor from each should cost about the same, right?
from your earlier comment, the one that then presented two lords with similar political influence, but very different other traits. So I was pointing out that a Favor should cost about the same from them if they really are very similar characters and it ends up being the same kind of favor.

Two other small things, worth mentioning because they reflect some general things to remember with GURPS. First, the GM is partially responsible for ensuring a trait is worth its CP cost; this includes stuff like adjusting CP costs if something about a specific setting would affect a traits value, but also in designing and playing out a particular adventure or campaign. So, if the GM awards a 1 CP Favor, the GM needs to make sure it is worth approximately 1 CP in terms of game effects; the same goes for a 5 CP favor.

"Social ability" in GURPS should usually be represented by traits that reflect a character's CP cost. The two lords in your example can be argued to "break" the system, but it is less "broken" and more "That's just what happens if life isn't point optimized." Seems like we have one lord actually built to be a lord, with traits focused on social influence and personal traits that keep his total CP cost down, while the second lord seems like an adventurer who achieved political success (maybe in retirement?)... which means a lot of his CP is sunk into traits that aren't so great for a Patron. This already stops being an issue if he had "only" been 150% of the PC's value; not just because that makes the base cost less, but because he is now in range to be this awesome, bear-wrestling chess master Ally, meaning he brings all those positives to an adventure with the party!
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Last edited by Otaku; 03-16-2018 at 06:04 AM. Reason: Expanded final paragraph into two paragraphs
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Old 03-15-2018, 11:13 PM   #20
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#56): Favor

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Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
I can see your "powerful organization" point, and think that would work in many cases. But in my example (and in what happened to my PC in game play), the organization was not the patron, the NPC was. My PC specifically did a good deed for a ruler that was secret; the organization knew nothing about it. Only that NPC would help. With an NPC built on half the PC's points, how could you model that as Patron?

And Contacts means 'You have an associate who provides you with useful information, or who does small (pick any two of “quick,” “nonhazardous,” and “inexpensive”) favors for you.' Neither the useful information nor a combination of two of the latter applies to saving my PC's life, which I would not consider a "small" favor.
That's because you are looking at it from the wrong end of things. Old Don Rickles joke: I love Frank Sinatra. He once saved my life. These two goons were beating me to death and then he said "That's enough". Saving your character's life is not a small favour for your character. But for the ruler of the fiefdom it is in fact quick, nonhazardous and inexpensive. He's just telling the soldiers not to kill that guy. It doesn't take any time, it doesn't involve any risk, and it doesn't cost him any money. So it's a small favour.
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