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Old 06-20-2018, 07:09 PM   #31
maximara
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Default Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
Let me make sure we're on the same page here (literally): when you say “4e core Ritual Magic system”, are you referring to the system found in Thaumatology pp.72–76? Or are you referring to the system found in Thaumatology on pp.121–165?
I addressed this in a previous post:

"The ritual magic system is described on p. B242 (and also GURPS Magic, p. 200)." pg 72

Chapter 5, Path and Books: "This system is a broad variant of Ritual Magic (pp. 72- 76). Its basis is the Ritual Magic skill (p. B218), which defines the principles behind all the operations. Multiple Ritual Magic specialties might exist – reflecting different approaches to the art – or all magic may be essentially the same. The skill’s description notwithstanding, it doesn’t necessarily involve working with spirits; this and other details depend on the setting’s metaphysics." (sic, pg 122)

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Here we have a section in the “Magic as Powers” chapter pointing out that There Is More Than One Way To Do It. Which actually supports my point, that it's entirely possible and reasonable to model shamanic magic using the regular magic system. There's no need to complicate matters by bringing in an entirely different game engine.

I'm not saying that you can't do it; just that it isn't the “natural fit” that you asserted in your first post.
My point is it should be a “natural fit” as everything we are told about pre-manastorm magic better fits 4e Ritual Magic and Magery (psudo Power Investiture) then the system we are given.

We are asked to believe that a Ritual Magic based Thaumatology somehow in a period of perhaps 10 years was altered into the "standard" system and everybody basically forgot the old Ritual Magic based Thaumatology. That is the equivalent of kicking all of Newton to the curb because Einstein explains the fringe cases a lot better.

Heck that makes less sense then lugging an atomic bomb to the center of Antartica, setting it off, and producing killer Penguins .

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Old 06-20-2018, 07:22 PM   #32
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Default Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
I addressed this in a previous post:

"The ritual magic system is described on p. B242 (and also GURPS Magic, p. 200)." pg 72

Chapter 5, Path and Books: "This system is a broad variant of Ritual Magic (pp. 72- 76). Its basis is the Ritual Magic skill (p. B218), which defines the principles behind all the operations. Multiple Ritual Magic specialties might exist – reflecting different approaches to the art – or all magic may be essentially the same. The skill’s description notwithstanding, it doesn’t necessarily involve working with spirits; this and other details depend on the setting’s metaphysics." (sic, pg 122)

It you asserted in your first post.
My point is it should be a “natural fit” as everything we are told about pre-manastorm magic better fits 4e Ritual Magic and Power Investiture magic then the system we are given.[/QUOTE]

You have not clarified your point. You have isntead confused it. Ritual Magic as on Basic p.242 and Path/Book Magic from Thaumatology are functionally very different systems.

We aren't even guaranteed that _any_ magic worked before Trinity. That quote you keep throwing at us doesn't not say that magic of different types worked before Trinity. What it actually says is that _some_ (and only some) pre-Trinity magical practices worked as standard Magic system Spells _after_ Trinity.
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Old 06-20-2018, 07:33 PM   #33
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Default Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer

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My point is it should be a “natural fit” as everything we are told about pre-manastorm magic better fits 4e Ritual Magic and Power Investiture magic then the system we are given.
You have not clarified your point. You have isntead confused it. Ritual Magic as on Basic p.242 and Path/Book Magic from Thaumatology are functionally very different systems.
No they are not. Again

"The ritual magic system is described on p. B242 (and also GURPS Magic, p. 200)." pg 72

Chapter 5, Path and Books: "This system is a broad variant of Ritual Magic (pp. 72- 76). Its basis is the Ritual Magic skill (p. B218), which defines the principles behind all the operations. Multiple Ritual Magic specialties might exist – reflecting different approaches to the art – or all magic may be essentially the same. The skill’s description notwithstanding, it doesn’t necessarily involve working with spirits; this and other details depend on the setting’s metaphysics." (pg 122)

Path and Books magic is expressly stated to be a broad variant of Ritual Magic and refers you back to page 72 which refers you to B242. They are not "functionally very different systems." but rather differences due to window dressing. Mechanically they are the same system.

Also this continues to avoid the issue of how spells created using Ritual Magic Thaumatology worked. That is akin to trying to run a DC motor on AC...doesn't work out too well.

"Ritual magic is traditionally associated with metaphysical systems in which spirits and similar entities are important Some versions even assume that all rituals – and perhaps all magical operations – work by invoking and commanding spirits. This is particularly the case with Effect Shaping magic, where the basic idea is that spirits can provide any energy the task requires, but the magician must perform the ritual correctly to get them to do his bidding." - GURPS Thaumatology pg 159

Prayers, the oral rituals of shamanism and Voudoun (ie Voodoo) all work along these lines which is how the pre-manastorm spells that actually worked were designed: "Old Trad spells often invoked the power of ancestors, spirits, saints, angels, demons or divinity." (ie they worked despite being based on Ritual magic Thaumatology).

"The first people who tried to cast spells were those who had been doing so all along: Voudounistas, shamans, practitioners of witchcraft and ceremonial magic, and those who believed they had psychic powers. If they were one of the few pre-Hellstorm mages, their disciplines began to produce repeatable effects." - Technomancer 5 A general pre-Hellstorm mana level of low would explain this very easily.

I like the setting but there are huge logical gaffs and outright logical screw ups.

Last edited by maximara; 06-20-2018 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:56 PM   #34
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Default Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer

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I addressed this in a previous post:

"The ritual magic system is described on p. B242 (and also GURPS Magic, p. 200)." pg 72

Chapter 5, Path and Books: "This system is a broad variant of Ritual Magic (pp. 72- 76). Its basis is the Ritual Magic skill (p. B218), which defines the principles behind all the operations. Multiple Ritual Magic specialties might exist – reflecting different approaches to the art – or all magic may be essentially the same. The skill’s description notwithstanding, it doesn’t necessarily involve working with spirits; this and other details depend on the setting’s metaphysics." (sic, pg 122)
So you're asserting that the system depicted in pages T72–76 and the system on pp.T121–165 are essentially the same despite using completely different game engines in terms of how a magician goes about working magic (“Path/Book Magic in Operation” from pp.T125–134 and “Casting Spells” from pp.B235–238 have virtually nothing in common with each other), but that Path/Book Magic (again, pp.T125–134) is somehow totally different from 3e Ritual Magic (pp.S84–91) despite the only differences being in a handful of details?

That doesn't strike me as at all consistent: either you paint with a broad brush in both comparisons, and say that if the Ritual Magic variant of regular magic is essentially the same as the Path/Book Magic systems despite vast mechanical differences then GURPS Spirits' Ritual Magic and Effect-Shaping Path Magic, which have far more mutually compatible systems, are also essentially the same;

Or you say that if the comparatively minor differences between Spirits' Ritual Magic and Effect-Shaping Path Magic is enough to say that they're different things, then the Ritual Magic variant of the regular magic system and the Path/Book magic systems, which have much more drastic differences, are also different things.

You can even say that the Ritual Magic variant of basic magic is a different thing from the Path/Book Magic systems despite having one and only one thing in common, while Spirits' Ritual Magic system and Effect-Shaping Path Magic are essentially the same thing despite differing in a handful of details.

All three of the above positions are at least self-consistent. But the position that you've taken, that two vastly different systems in Thaumatology are essentially the same because the book points out one similarity between them but that two nearly identical systems in Spirits and Thaumatology are fundamentally different because they don't agree on every particular? That's not self-consistent.

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My point is it should be a “natural fit” as everything we are told about pre-manastorm magic better fits 4e Ritual Magic and Power Investiture magic then the system we are given.

We are asked to believe that a Ritual Magic based Thaumatology somehow in a period of perhaps 10 years was altered into the "standard" system and everybody basically forgot the old Ritual Magic based Thaumatology.
No, we aren't. We are asked to believe that magic worked the same way before the Hellstorm as it did after, but that it was rare and unreliable and that its practitioners mistakenly attributed what little success they did have with it to gods and spirits, until the Hellstorm made it common and reliable and the scientific community took over and formalized it into the “science of magic” that is the heart of the setting.

Even if you say that the pre-Hellstorm practices resembled 3e Ritual Magic, that's not the same as saying that they were Ritual Magic; and the book even goes as far as to say that there's no Ritual Magic in this setting. So, to quote a famous detective, once you've eliminated the impossible, whatever's left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. In this case, the book eliminates Ritual Magic as a possibility; so the only thing left, basic magic that resembles ritual magic, is the truth that you're left with.

Again, consistency. It's only when you insist on saying that it used to be Ritual Magic that you run into problems of “how it was” being inconsistent with “how it is”.
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Old 06-21-2018, 06:00 AM   #35
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Default Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer

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So you're asserting that the system depicted in pages T72–76 and the system on pp.T121–165 are essentially the same despite using completely different game engines in terms of how a magician goes about working magic (“Path/Book Magic in Operation” from pp.T125–134 and “Casting Spells” from pp.B235–238 have virtually nothing in common with each other), but that Path/Book Magic (again, pp.T125–134) is somehow totally different from 3e Ritual Magic (pp.S84–91) despite the only differences being in a handful of details?
It is which details that are different that is the key.

1) 3e Ritual Magic expressly didn't use magery or mana though per Religion it could have used Power Investiture and Sanctity. 4e Ritual Magic expressly uses magery and mana as its default (it can be tweeked to Power Investiture and Sanctity but we are talking defaults here)

2) 3e Ritual Magic was expressly immune to Magic Resistance; none of the 4e methods are immune to Magic Resistance per T-RPM. I should mention that Religion makes no mention of Magic Resistance...implying that its form of magic was also immune to Magic Resistance (which makes sense as having people "immune" to "divine power" is at first glance silly)

3) If you compare Spirits and Religion you will see there are a lot of parallels. In fact Spirits 89 talks about the possible relationship between Spiritual and Religious magic. Unless you are dealing with some modified version of Magery that does not happen with 4e Ritual Magic.

4) "Power Investiture functions a lot like Magery – so much so that gamers who prefer to keep things elegant may prefer to treat the former as a modified version of the latter." (sic Thaumatology 67)

So aside from the whole Magic Resistance thing 3e Ritual Magic seems to more a "clerical" variant of 4e Ritual Magic with Power Investiture replacing Magery then the default 4e Ritual Magic system. Something I pointed out a while ago.

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The use of Magery is irrelevant; the use of Mana is optional.
Actually it is totally relevant as demonstrated above. Also Sanctity Replaces Mana is the option not mana. Mana based magic is the default.

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Even if you say that the pre-Hellstorm practices resembled 3e Ritual Magic, that's not the same as saying that they were Ritual Magic; and the book even goes as far as to say that there's no Ritual Magic in this setting. So, to quote a famous detective, once you've eliminated the impossible, whatever's left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. In this case, the book eliminates Ritual Magic as a possibility; so the only thing left, basic magic that resembles ritual magic, is the truth that you're left with.
No the book states that the Voodoo magic system doesn't exist not that Ritual Magic as a whole doesn't exist. The book vaguely talks about the Penguins and Nazis using "rituals" though it could be talking about ceremonial magic.

As shown by Thaumatology, just like magery itself can have a host of alternatives so can Ritual Magic in 4e. 3e Ritual Magic is at best a particular variant of 4e Ritual Magic rather then the core.

To also quote from the famous detective; "You see, but you do not observe. The distinction is clear." ("A Scandal in Bohemia")

The key point is that voodoo/spirits magic didn't use magery or mana.

Of the systems that existed when Technomancer came out only two really fit that bill: Magic Power from Supers (which was replaces with the knacks mechanics which does exist on Merlin-1; pg 70); and the Religion system.

In fact Spirits goes out of its way to mention how 3e Ritual Magic can be effected by Sanctity (Sprits 97) Baring some real esoteric versions of magery that doesn't happen with mage spells regardless of what core system is being used.

"The ritual magic rules and the magic system in GURPS Magic are different means to an end. Ritual magic does not depend on mana to function; it works through the powers of the spirit world." (Spirits 103) Roma Arcana by contrast has spirits represented by mana and it uses 4e Ritual Magic meaning that system does depend on mana to function.

If 3e Ritual Magic didn't use magery or mana then it is different from 4e Ritual Magic which by default does. The only 3e system that fits that bill is the Religion system. Since we have eliminated all magery based Ritual Magic we are left with a Power Investiture variant of Ritual Magic.

So what Technomancer is saying doesn't exist is Power Investiture (Path/Book) rather then Magery (Path/Book) as the later is geared around magery and mana and the Voodoo/Spiurits system was not.

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Old 06-21-2018, 09:03 AM   #36
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Default Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer

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It is which details that are different that is the key.
If the only differences are that 4e interacts with Magery, Magic Resistance, and Mana (for the sake of argument) and 3e doesn't, that's nothing compared to the differences between 4e's spell-casting Ritual Magic and 4e's effect-shaping Path Magic:

1. spell-casting works by concentrating for a handful of seconds specified by the spell, spending a number of FP specified by the spell, and if your skill isn't high enough chanting and performing some hand motions. Then you roll, and the spell's effect happens. By contrast, Effect-shaping requires you to first prepare a ritual space and adorn it with some appropriate material components. After doing that, you go through an unspecified ritual performance for a length of time that's typically measured in tens of minutes or hours before rolling.

2. Spell-casting classifies its spells into Regular, Area, Missile, Blocking, Information, Resisted, Enchantment, and the catch-all Special. Except for Information spells, all of these assume that the subject of the spell is present and either in physical contact with the caster or in line of sight. Except for Blocking spells, you take a range penalty if you aren't touching the spell's subject, and that penalty is usually very severe. By contrast, Effect-Shaping has no such classification scheme; all rituals are designed to affect targets that may not be present and it's assumed that one of the aforementioned material components is a Symbolic Representation of the subject.

3. The extent of the flexibility of a spell is that some of them can be more powerful if you spend more energy on them. Others can't; and even among those that can, there's sometimes a cap on how much more powerful they can be. What “more powerful” means is included in the spell description. In Effect-Shaping, you always get to specify a number of Ritual Parameters that adjust various aspects of the ritual's effect: multiple targets, areas, duration, etc. Each of these Parameters applies a penalty, and it's assumed that the magician will put additional effort into the aforementioned ritual space, time, and material components to offset those penalties.

4. Spell-casting further categorizes its spells as instantaneous, temporary, lasting, permanent, and enchantment. Temporary spells need to be periodically maintained with additional energy expenditures, the period generally being measured in seconds or minutes; lasting spells last until a terminal condition is met; permanent spells last until dispelled. By contrast, Effect-Shaping uses an exponential Duration factor to determine how long the effect lasts (scaling quickly from minutes to a year or more), when it's not using the optional Conditional Termination rule.

There are even more differences that I haven't listed; hopefully, though, the above has made my point: it's far, far easier to list the things that spell-casting Ritual Magic has in common with Effect-Shaping Path Magic than to list their differences; that's because there are far more differences than things they have in common.
Conversely, it's easier to list the differences between 3e Ritual Magic and Effect-Shaping Path Magic than it is to list the differences. And this is because they have far more in common than they have differences.

If you're going to point to specific rules differences between 3e Ritual Magic and 4e Path Magic as an argument for why they should be considered different things, then to be consistent you should do likewise when comparing spell-casting Ritual Magic and Effect-Shaping Path Magic.

Conversely, if the quote that “Path Magic is a variant of Ritual Magic” is enough for you to say that they're the same thing despite one being based on Effect-Shaping and the other on spell-casting, then the section in the Introduction that specifically states that Path/Book Magic is the same system (not even “a variant of”) as the one in Voodoo and Spirits ought to be enough to say that, well, they're the same system:
Notably, C.J. Carella's GURPS Voodoo provided a potentially, subtle system of ritual magic (called “Path/Book” magic in Thaumatology; see pp.121–165), which Stephen Kenson subsequently revised and expanded in GURPS Spirits.
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You don't get to use one set of standards for one comparison and then a different set of standards for another comparison.

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No the book states that the Voodoo magic system doesn't exist not that Ritual Magic as a whole doesn't exist. The book vaguely talks about the Penguins and Nazis using "rituals" though it could be talking about ceremonial magic.
The spell-casting system refers to the chanting and gestures that low-skill mages use as “rituals”. And the book says that the Ritual Magic skill and the magic system associated with it doesn't exist in the setting. That's 3e Ritual Magic and 4e Path Magic, unless you're willing to say that spell-casting Ritual Magic and Effect-Shaping Path Magic are different things.
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:27 AM   #37
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Default Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer

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If the only differences are that 4e interacts with Magery, Magic Resistance, and Mana (for the sake of argument) and 3e doesn't, that's nothing compared to the differences between 4e's spell-casting Ritual Magic and 4e's effect-shaping Path Magic

(snipped for space)
All of that is incidental to the non use of Magery and mana in 3e Ritual Magic. That is the key point. Even by the end of GURPS 3e Technomancer had issues because magery could be modified ala enhancement and limitations.

Thaumatology pg 20-28 devoted a whole section (Limited and Modified Magery) to this. 20 limitations and 5 enhancements are mentioned but that isn't all the options. Heck in some settings "Path/Book and spell-based magic are closely related" The one main difference is that very high mana in this set up has no effect on the critical failure roll on a Path/Book wizard while the spell-based one still has to worry about it.

Magery with the No Zero- Level Requirement and No Spell Prerequisites enhancements (+40%) and the External Sources Only (varies) limitation is a totally different animal from Magery with the Sanctity Replaces Mana (0%) modification. The first is still going to use mana and while the second uses Sanctity it is in all other respects Magery. Neither of these is 3e Ritual magic as that eliminated both magery and mana from the equation.

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Old 06-21-2018, 10:37 AM   #38
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by the end of GURPS 3e Technomancer had issues because magery could be modified ala enhancement and limitations.
Modified versions of Magery pre-date Technomancer by a number of years. Various types may be found in Compendium I.

Not sure how wny of those would create problems for Technomancer anyway.
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Old 06-21-2018, 11:04 AM   #39
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Default Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer

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All of that is incidental to the non use of Magery and mana in 3e Ritual Magic. That is the key point.
No, it isn't. Whether the system uses Magery or Ritual Aptitude or Power Investiture or some other Advantage is a minor point , especially when you consider that the Magery that empowers Path Magic is not the Magery that empowers spell-casting magic. Whether the system uses Mana, Sanctity, Dimensional Stability, or nothing is also a minor point: in both cases, there are slight changes to the flavor but no significant change to the game engine.

By contrast, the stuff I said that you snipped demonstrates drastic core differences between 4e's spell-casting Ritual Magic and 4e's Effect-Shaping Path Magic such as longer casting times, longer durations, and inherently long-range effects.
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Old 06-21-2018, 02:41 PM   #40
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Default Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer

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No, it isn't. Whether the system uses Magery or Ritual Aptitude or Power Investiture or some other Advantage is a minor point , especially when you consider that the Magery that empowers Path Magic is not the Magery that empowers spell-casting magic. Whether the system uses Mana, Sanctity, Dimensional Stability, or nothing is also a minor point: in both cases, there are slight changes to the flavor but no significant change to the game engine.

By contrast, the stuff I said that you snipped demonstrates drastic core differences between 4e's spell-casting Ritual Magic and 4e's Effect-Shaping Path Magic such as longer casting times, longer durations, and inherently long-range effects.
I decided to see the design notes on GURPS Technomancer that I remember reading were still around.

"Technomancer is the old sf writer's game of alternate history. Change one thing, then follow the rules and see what happens."

That goes back to the points I raised regarding how you from belief in a 3e ritual magic Thaumatology to what Merlin-1 wound up using.

"In many real-world occult systems, magic follows well defined (if fictional) laws -- so why not make it that way in a game?" I likely remembered this which is why I felt Authentic Thaumaturgy was relevant.

"In this particular respect, the mechanistic systems in GURPS Magic worked better than something like GURPS Voodoo would have, much as I admire that system." But 4e Ritual Magic has a more mechanistic aspect to it then 3e Ritual Magic did.

In looking around I saw Pyramid #3/115: Technomancer which takes the setting to 4e rules.

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