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Old 02-25-2012, 10:17 AM   #1
Jovus
 
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Default Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

I'm hoping for some feedback, because the way I'm calculating things, it looks like even the heaviest robots are easily susceptible to TL8 man-portable antivehicular weaponry.

Example:

The Juggernaut, which was built to replace the Vanguard (which was apparently a robotic tank in use by the US Army during the Final War) has DR 800, laminate. This means that vs. your typical shaped-charge warhead, it has DR 160.

The Javelin, a TL8 man-portable anti-armor weapon found on HT153, is listed as doing 6dx11(10), after a preliminary jet that detonates reactive armor. If my calculations are correct, average damage for this would be [(36+6)/2] * 11 = 231 damage, meaning the Juggenaut would take 71 damage from an average hit, or just over a third of its health.

I realize that if you're letting your main battle tank get swarmed by infantry without support, you're doing it wrong, but this still leaves me doubtful. Obviously a well-equipped, well-manned, and prepared army would have no trouble with an AI's squadrons. Yes, I realize that none of the armies in the Final War were well-equipped, well-manned, or prepared. Still, this is a TL8 weapon, and at the time of the war we were firmly into TL9.)

Similar problems exist for a few other exterminator robots. I can understand those built after the end of the War having a lower DR - most humans won't have anti-armor capabilities.

Am I missing something obvious? (For example, does the armor divisor apply to damage as well? I didn't see that anywhere.) Have I done my calculations wrong? And if I'm not wrong and this is a problem, what are some ideas for fixing it?

I'm tempted to double the armor on the Juggernaut and Vanguard, and call the latter an APC rather than a US Army tank.
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Old 02-25-2012, 11:57 AM   #2
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

Well, two things, and a preliminary.

No, armor divisors don't reduce wounding in any way.

Now, first of all, 800 DR is probably a bit low for the front facings of a main battle tank. The HT writeup of the T-72 does better than that.

But secondly, ATGMs penetrate tanks. It's what they do and so far there's really no viable counter to the high-end ones. A missile can carry a big shaped charge, and deliver it as a top attack. Enough armor to stop something like that would make a tank useless. The experimental anti-missile defenses aren't more and better armor, they're defensive weapons!

Tank versus ATGM relies on the tank or, more likely, smaller supporting elements preventing the ATGM from being able to take a clean shot. Failing that, well, you might survive, but don't count on it.
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Old 02-25-2012, 12:34 PM   #3
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
But secondly, ATGMs penetrate tanks. It's what they do and so far there's really no viable counter to the high-end ones. A missile can carry a big shaped charge, and deliver it as a top attack.
I agree, and I have no problem with equivalent-TL anti-armour weaponry being able to truly mess up a tank. My problem is that the anti-armour system I pointed to is TL8, whereas the main battle 'bot I gave as my example is late TL9.

As a counter-example, a bazooka isn't going to do much to the T-72.
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Old 02-25-2012, 02:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

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Originally Posted by Jovus View Post
I agree, and I have no problem with equivalent-TL anti-armour weaponry being able to truly mess up a tank. My problem is that the anti-armour system I pointed to is TL8, whereas the main battle 'bot I gave as my example is late TL9.

As a counter-example, a bazooka isn't going to do much to the T-72.
Have you checked the math on that? I can't reach my HT from here but I suspect that a bazooka or at least some of its contemporaries would handily punch through the top armor of a T-72, and might work on the rear or sides. It won't go through the front, but that's not how it's supposed to work anyway and an ATGM works around that even if you can't get a decent firing angle.

And progression since favors the antitank weapon more than the tank with advances in rocketry, guidance, and warhead design. Unless you're slipping super-material armor (BPC, say) into your 'TL9', I don't see any reason to think TL9's tanks will be able to carry armor to stop TL8's finest armor-defeating weapons.
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Old 02-25-2012, 02:30 PM   #5
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

-- The robot DR is all around protection, which is actually very impressive compared to modern or near-modern main battle tanks. Especially against weapons with overhead attacks (p. B107).

-- That said, I thought it was a setting element that heavy anti-vehicle weapons are rare in human hands?
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Old 02-25-2012, 02:38 PM   #6
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Have you checked the math on that?
The Carl Gustav, which is the best listed TL7 anti-armor weapon, does 105 damage per hit against the T-72's effective DR of 33 on the side (I'm assuming laminate armor), so yes, that will get through.

A more 'average' weapon would do 63 damage against an effective DR of 33.

A bazooka would do 28 damage.

So, yes, your average mid-TL anti-armor weapon will penetrate the side armor of the T-72 as listed. I stand corrected.

I think I'm still going to bump the armor of the nastier 'bots if they ever show up, just to reinforce the idea of their superiority.
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Old 02-25-2012, 03:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovus;1328104
The Javelin, a TL8 man-portable anti-armor weapon found on HT153, is listed as doing 6dx11(10), after a preliminary jet that detonates reactive armor. If my calculations are correct, average damage for this would be [(36+6)/2
* 11 = 231 damage, meaning the Juggenaut would take 71 damage from an average hit, or just over a third of its health.
Your calculations look funny to me. Here are mine.

The Javelin has a MS-HEAT warhead of 6Dx3(10) + 6Dx11(10). As instructed on p.170 of HT, when there is no reactve armor to detoante add the 2 charges of MS-HEAT together.

So the Javelin has an average of (6Dx14)=294 pts of damage for pentration purposes. The robo tank does indeed have DR160 in this case either front or top which are the Javelin's 2 attack options. It takes 134 pts of dmaage which is indeeed not good for it.

Compare to the T-72 for HT. It has frontal armor of 1155 x 1.5x for being early Lamiante on its' front v. HEAT for 1732. This is then rediced to 172 by the MS-HEAT and the T-72 takes 122 pts which isn't good for it with its' HT of 9x either. In the RW it probably goes boom.

However, that is doing things the hard way. The Javelin can be set for top attack and the T-72 has only DR90 there with no multiplier. Teh result then is 294 -9 which is even worse and even more likely to make the tank go boom.

So, even for an absolutely high-end TL8 aniti-tank missile ($85,000 each) the Javelin is not6 as effective agaisnt the robotank as it is against lower TL vehicles.

Whe you compare the common as dirt RPG-7 which is a threat to all TL8 tanks from any aspect except the front bit bounces off the ROS tank I think they're doing as well as is possible. If I was a ROs freedom fighter I would be _very_ unhappy to see my RPGs bounce.
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Old 02-25-2012, 03:25 PM   #8
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Your calculations look funny to me. Here are mine.

The Javelin has a MS-HEAT warhead of 6Dx3(10) + 6Dx11(10). As instructed on p.170 of HT, when there is no reactve armor to detoante add the 2 charges of MS-HEAT together.

So the Javelin has an average of (6Dx14)=294 pts of damage for pentration purposes. The robo tank does indeed have DR160 in this case either front or top which are the Javelin's 2 attack options. It takes 134 pts of dmaage which is indeeed not good for it.
I'm assuming that the tank also has some form of reactive armor, since it's cheap as dirt. However, as written, it does not; you are correct. My difficulty isn't that the robotank isn't better against a TL8 weapon than its TL8 'equivalent'. The problem I have is twofold:

1) the robotank is seriously threatened by a TL8 weapon, but is at least late TL9 if not early TL10 (partially answered by the above)

2) The T-72a, while a respectable tank, is by no means top of the line, whereas the Juggernaut is supposed to be such. So the T72a, while the only comparison I can find, isn't really the best possible.

There are tanks in UT; a TL10 hovertank claims to have 700/300 armor, but enough's been said about how UT's stats are somewhat suspect.

From what I can see so far there are a couple of possible alternatives to making these things scary on their own: one is to just evenhandedly double the armor, which makes for a cinematically-tough nut to crack; the other is to triple or quadruple the front armor, while leaving the other facings the same or lowering them by 100.
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Old 02-25-2012, 03:31 PM   #9
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch View Post
The robot DR is all around protection, which is actually very impressive compared to modern or near-modern main battle tanks. Especially against weapons with overhead attacks (p. B107).
I think the logic is basically that the RoS tanks can't rely on taking fire from the front. Primarily serving as heavy fire support for cleanup operations, they are better off being proofed against moderate threats from all directions then high-level threats from one direction. Requirements for tactical (ground pressure) and strategic (shipping weight) mobility make it impractical to be both.

Might a proper MBT variant be ready to enter production if a bot-on-bot hot war becomes likely.
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Old 02-25-2012, 03:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

Some more modern combat vehicles are in GURPS Vehicles Lite and the excerpts (see http://tzeentchnet.pingslave.com/GURPS.html under Sourcebooks).

Note that based on my own design of the T-72A that directly converted known RHA armor values, the High-Tech version is TOO well armored (like, by +500 DR on the turret front!). So I would be a bit leery of taking it as anything but a rough approximation of a "modern tank" level of protection.
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