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Old 02-03-2010, 11:56 PM   #11
EarthStone
 
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

As I've now said in the other threads about ROF, I no longer think it's too powerful.

Given that:
each player has to buy and use their own,
one can cancel another,
the die roll affects it and thus the final number,
and thus loaded die/reloaded die can affect that,

I see that it's not quite the 'near-instant win' that it seemed to be in the games we played.
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Old 02-04-2010, 02:50 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Originally Posted by Spaceknight View Post
well, assuming you don't subscribe to the whole imbalance of power inherent to people who acquire various munchkinly add-ons and are after a "fair" game...
I've never liked this aspect of Munchkin. :(

So, I made certain to by six coasters for my game, and will by six KOMs (I have two so far). That keeps it fair.
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Old 02-06-2010, 11:22 AM   #13
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Originally Posted by crimhead View Post
I've never liked this aspect of Munchkin. :(

So, I made certain to by six coasters for my game, and will by six KOMs (I have two so far). That keeps it fair.
I always let all the players use the same Coaster (used colored clip that match the bases, as the players marker). But I not going share the RoF card. Like Reverend Pee Kitty Stated above ( http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...98&postcount=9 ), it's not a big advantage. (?)

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Old 02-11-2010, 05:32 PM   #14
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
I don't really see it as overly powerful, especially for a one-shot item.

Player A: Okay, so I'm effectively 19 against the monster's 32. I'm playing Reversal of Fortune! Now I'm 91!

Player B: In that case, I'm throwing in a potion to add +2. Now you're 21, which is actually 12.

Granted, if no one has a card with an appropriate bonus or penalty, they can't do much about this, but that's the case with just about any combat.
That's one case where it doesn't work. If you went from 15 to 51, it would be a different story. Your scenario also only works if an enemy is in throwing range, and you have no cards to counter. To me that's just careless use.

This card can give a big advantage early on. Play it when your at level 4, to become level 40. Now you can beat a very powerful monster early on. This can give you a huge pile of treasure, and a big advantage that lasts the rest of the game. Once you get powerful, it becomes much easy to get even more powerful. I insist this card is very strong if played carefully (and if nobody else has one).

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Originally Posted by Quaff_fu View Post
I always let all the players use the same Coaster (used colored clip that match the bases, as the players marker). But I not going share the RoF card. Like Reverend Pee Kitty Stated above ( http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...98&postcount=9 ), it's not a big advantage.
Me, I don't want any such advantage. I want my success to be determined by luck, strategy, and diplomacy. Not by the fact that I spent seven dollars and somebody else didn't. There's a reason I don't play Magic or Heroclix. Other people like collectible games, and that's fine. It's just not for me.

I do like reversal of fortunes, I just think it should be for everyone or for no one.

Last edited by crimhead; 02-11-2010 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:35 PM   #15
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Originally Posted by crimhead View Post
That's one case where it doesn't work. If you went from 15 to 51, it would be a different story.
No, same story. For example, if you could throw a -4 in, you'd take him down to 11 (which reads 11) or a +6 could take him up to 21 (which reads 12).

And you never know what the die roll will bring. Heck, let's say he stays at 15 (read 51) against a level 25 monster. Then he rolls a 5 on his die. Now he's at 20 (read 02!) and loses horribly. Pretty funny stuff.

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Your scenario also only works if an enemy is in throwing range, and you have no cards to counter. To me that's just careless use.
I'll give you the 'in throwing range' qualifier, sure. That's why you rarely want to let someone explore the dungeon all by their lonesome if you can help it, especially if they're close to level 10!

(As for the latter, all scenarios in Munchkin -- or heck, most games -- come with the qualifier, "Unless he has cards to counter it!" But that's just a pointless thing to have to say, because you can counter just about any card with the right card.)

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This card can give a big advantage early on. Play it when your at level 4, to become level 40. Now you can beat a very powerful monster early on. This can give you a huge pile of treasure, and a big advantage that lasts the rest of the game. Once you get powerful, it becomes much easy to get even more powerful. I insist this card is very strong if played carefully (and if nobody else has one).
Sure it is. And so are several of the treasure cards. Getting the right combo early on can give you a huge lead right from the get-go.

Does that sound like a good thing to you? If so, you guys play way different than we do. No one wants a huge lead from the start, because it means everyone gangs up on them and screws 'em over for most of the game!

(Plus, I'll point out that if your example Munchkin rolls a 6 on his die, he gets boosted to level 10 . . . which is read "01". Oops!!!)

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Me, I don't want any such advantage. I want my success to be determined by luck, strategy, and diplomacy. Not by the fact that I spent seven dollars and somebody else didn't.
Feel free to forbid it in your game. Or do what I did (if it's your copy) -- mix it into the stack. But Munchkin has always given people an edge for buying stuff, from the very first Munchkin T-shirt and beyond. It's a fun way to reward someone for being a crazy enough fan to buy swag and promote the game.
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Old 02-12-2010, 02:50 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

Can I get an AMEN for the good Rev!!!!!
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Old 02-12-2010, 07:57 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Can I get an AMEN for the good Rev!!!!!
Not from me, but I'll give him a critique. ;)

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
No, same story. For example, if you could throw a -4 in, you'd take him down to 11 (which reads 11) or a +6 could take him up to 21 (which reads 12).
I don't think there are any objects which give -4 or +6. In fact, there are no cards which give a minus to other munchkins - this is important. (There's one sex change in the whole deck).

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
I'll give you the 'in throwing range' qualifier, sure. That's why you rarely want to let someone explore the dungeon all by their lonesome if you can help it, especially if they're close to level 10!
Not only do other munchkins have to be in throwing range, but they have to actually have a throwable item which grants a combat bonus. I only counted 10 such items out of about 125 treasure cards. Furthermore, the munchkin in range has to have that item already on the table, so an astute player should be able to avoid this peril.

As for exploring by one's lonesome, the game provides incentive to explore fresh rooms. previously explored rooms don't grant DxM cards, don't have fresh monsters, and are possibly ransacked or looted out. This naturally encourages munchkins to separate.

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
(As for the latter, all scenarios in Munchkin -- or heck, most games -- come with the qualifier, "Unless he has cards to counter it!" But that's just a pointless thing to have to say, because you can counter just about any card with the right card.)
If you don't have a counter, then you don't play this card (when there's a munckin in range who is showing a throwable on shot). That would just be dumb.

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
And you never know what the die roll will bring. Heck, let's say he stays at 15 (read 51) against a level 25 monster. Then he rolls a 5 on his die. Now he's at 20 (read 02!) and loses horribly. Pretty funny stuff...

...(Plus, I'll point out that if your example Munchkin rolls a 6 on his die, he gets boosted to level 10 . . . which is read "01". Oops!!!)
Good point, I'll grant you that. But if you change my example to level 2, 3, or even 1, the die roll can (and will) only help you. It's not hard to set this up - just a matter of which items go temporarily in your pack vs in hand. Even in my first example, you're a 5:1 favourite. That's pretty strong if you ask me (but admittedly funny if it backfires).

It's really not hard (if your careful) to find an opportunity to use this card to a big advantage. Yes, you have to be strategic about it, and even then it's not (quite) a 100 per cent win-any-fight ticket. But it's still hugely powerful.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
Sure it is. And so are several of the treasure cards. Getting the right combo early on can give you a huge lead right from the get-go.

Does that sound like a good thing to you? If so, you guys play way different than we do. No one wants a huge lead from the start, because it means everyone gangs up on them and screws 'em over for most of the game!
We only tend to play with 3 or 4 players - which means only two or three opponents. there's a limit to how much they can slow you down. Their monster enhancers play out pretty fast.

So are you saying starting with a fourth treasure which lets you win one big a fight when you would otherwise have been a cinch to lose isn't a big advantage?

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
Feel free to forbid it in your game. Or do what I did (if it's your copy) -- mix it into the stack.
I don't want to forbid it - I want to provide everybody with one to maintain the balance of power. I could shuffle it into the deck (though I think all house rules should be agreed on by everyone regardless of who owns the game), but I'd rather just buy six and use it as intended.

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
It's a fun way to reward someone for being a crazy enough fan to buy swag and promote the game.
But it can discourage and deter newer and more casual players, as well as certain people I game with who are under employed, single parents, or children; and simply don't have very much disposable income. Fortunately I'm a crazy enough fan to buy enough for everyone! Would you discourage this?

Again, Some people like to give an advantage to the big spenders. Look how popular MTG is. That's fine, but like it or not I insist that packing one of these is a big advantage against players without one.
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Old 02-13-2010, 02:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Originally Posted by crimhead View Post
Not only do other munchkins have to be in throwing range, but they have to actually have a throwable item which grants a combat bonus. I only counted 10 such items out of about 125 treasure cards. Furthermore, the munchkin in range has to have that item already on the table, so an astute player should be able to avoid this peril.
There are, with the expansion, 22 or 23 Throwable Items. All but one of those Throwable Items are "usable once only" and therefore can be played from your hand as well as from the table.
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Old 02-14-2010, 11:21 AM   #19
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Originally Posted by crimhead View Post
... if you change my example to level 2, 3, or even 1, the die roll can (and will) only help you. It's not hard to set this up - just a matter of which items go temporarily in your pack vs in hand. Even in my first example, you're a 5:1 favourite. That's pretty strong if you ask me (but admittedly funny if it backfires).
Yeah, THAT's the part I think is imbalanced.
You can guaranteed win your first combat. That isn't starting with "one item", that's starting with an added level (sometimes two) and an average of 2 more treasures.
And that kind of bonus is a bit too much, I think, especially with absolutely no cost to it.

Consider how abusive this can be if I choose not to put any of my opening draw treasures into play. I explore a room, grab a quick monster defeat, THEN play all my initial draw of treasures. Conservatively, I'd expect to be entering combat in the next room at 12+, and that's just on turn 1, consider me on turn 2 after winning the 2nd combat. Even the worst case of losing the 2nd combat, I'll still come out ahead despite any Bad Stuff.


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So are you saying starting with a fourth treasure which lets you win one big a fight when you would otherwise have been a cinch to lose isn't a big advantage?
exactly. It at least needs a cost of eating up one of your initial draw.
If there's a good case that as 1 treasure card it's as balanced as any other single treasure that can tip a whole combat outcome, it still doesn't excuse the overall 1 card advantage.

(now, feel free to come up with any other "cost" to balance it. eg, you get no levels from the combat if you win. whatever you want. The difference is that the suggestion of affecting your starting draw is a change to the off-card rules sheet, not errata to the card text.)


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But it can discourage and deter newer and more casual players...
Especially with that first turn jumpstart.
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Old 02-14-2010, 12:01 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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There are, with the expansion, 22 or 23 Throwable Items. All but one of those Throwable Items are "usable once only" and therefore can be played from your hand as well as from the table.
But 12 or 13 of them are totally irrelevant to this discussion as they don't provide any combat bonus. The remaining 10 cards are less than nine per cent of the treasure deck. They are not a big factor in the game at all.

I'd forgotten those cards can be played from the hand, so maybe you should be a little more cautious than I suggested. But RoF is a one time card, so you only need to to find one good opportunity all game to use it.

If used carefully (and your opponents don't have any), you're pretty much a shoe in to beat two or three powerful monsters - with enhancers. In these situations, it's virtually as good as the old wand of dowsing from the card game. That card and its equivalents were not included in the board game - presumably because they're grossly overpowered even when everyone had an equal chance of drawing it.

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now, feel free to come up with any other "cost" to balance it...
It's balanced by me purchasing six for my game. Fun, too!

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Especially with that first turn jumpstart.
Have you bought six yet? :D
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