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Old 03-18-2017, 01:59 PM   #71
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
That isn't what we got, however, and I've been attempting to find out why.
Because GURPS isn't HERO and traits aren't designed as abstracts. Digital Mind exists only because Transhuman Space existed with the need for software-based PCs.
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Old 03-18-2017, 02:30 PM   #72
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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Because GURPS isn't HERO and traits aren't designed as abstracts. Digital Mind exists only because Transhuman Space existed with the need for software-based PCs.
That may be a completely accurate answer, but it is a poor justification. I've never played HERO; if your arguments are based entirely on how another system has done generic and universal wrong, we're at an impasse. I've also never played anything set in Transhuman Space, nor read much of it either. So Transhuman Space needing a trait may be the reason for Digital Mind working how it does, but this thread exists because Digital Mind is in [Basic].

If Digital Mind only shows up in Characters because it was needed for Transhuman Space, that supports my point. A setting specific trait presented in setting specific form really ought to be in that setting's core book. Based on some of the other comments made since I brought this up, "setting specific" doesn't mean a trait that is more than a numerical bonus with a CP cost. In fact, it can contain more than a little fluff; the issue arrives when, within the trait, you cannot separate the crunch from the fluff (or at least, as the person trying to use GURPS, cannot do so easily). We could have gotten the "generic, universal" version of Digital Mind in [Basic], with Transhuman Space featuring the actual Digital Mind Advantage.

GURPS is designed to run a lot of things. I understand the fear of it becoming too abstract and bland, as I've heard HEROS criticized as being, but at least I am here because GURPS does generic and universal.
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Old 03-18-2017, 02:40 PM   #73
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

Transhuman Space isn't the only possible setting with software-based AI.
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:12 PM   #74
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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If Digital Mind only shows up in Characters because it was needed for Transhuman Space, that supports my point.
I understand that this bothers you, but on this I think the only point you can make is that "if I were redoing GURPS 4e with everything we have now, I wouldn't put it in the Basic Set as written". Which is legit, but makes a lot of assumptions.

Static and Neutralize exist in the Basic Set, but there they are again in specific versions which were then generalized for how they work on non-psi/magic stuff in Powers. Psionic Powers are in the Basic Set, and a full fledged Powers system in Powers. shrug

They're included in Basic because it was recognized that there was a need for these things. More fully fleshed, generalized versions aren't in Basic because Basic was over a decade ago and nobody had come up with them at the time. *shrug*
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:33 PM   #75
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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So Digital Mind is comparable to Unkillable 2 with a level of Breakable (The gadget being the chip itself), Reincarnation (since your new body may be different to your old one) and Trigger (that being someone repairing or preparing a body and inserting your chip)? Plus, you have the possibility of instantly being at full HP again if the chip is inserted in a fully healed body.
Somehow this doesn't seem right.
Only if you consider that all meat guys in a Fantasy setting also have all those traits because they can be ressurected by a mage.

Thats like saying: "well, since magical ressurection or superscience ressurection is a thing in my scenario, as long as the brain is intacted, every human beings have Unkillable 2 with breakable and trigger (and since your brain can be transplanted in a new body, ressurection too).

The "repairing" of the mechanical body is akin to magical healing; the transference of a positronic CPU to a new body is akin to the transposition of a brain to a new body (a higly superscience feat).

All those traits (unkillable, reincarnation, duplication, extra life, yadda yadda) are all AUTOMATIC.

- Unkillable: if you destroy the physical brain, the AI is dead. So, not really unkillable.
Regular brains work like that too
- Reincarnation: after you die, you are reborn in a new life. Thats automatic - died, reborned.
For a machine, it would be more like an AI that exists inside the internet, and can remain a part of its memories alive (the core of the AI's essence, so, each reencarnation would be different)
- Duplication: you can upload your memory into an android copy... And if both copies remain connected, the same mind can control both (or more) as a single entity
- Possession: this is like Ultron from that bad Avengers movie; the AI invades an androids' factory, makes hundreds of killer bots and control them all as extensions of itself (like its "fingers") by wi fi.
- Extra Life: you have another body somewhere with a backup of your mind (perhaps you keep it up to date with constant newer back ups). Thats absolutely NOT the same as Digital Mind - your backup body is activated as soon as you're killed.

Now, note, nothing of that is close to Digital Mind. Digital Mind just allows you to have your memory storaged somewhere, but that doesn't give you any kind of a mean to restore yourself BY YOURSELF. In this regard is no different than needing a magical or superscience ressurection - just a little bit easier, but still dependent on external help. If someone removes your positronic brain and keeps you in a box, you are in no better position than if someone removes your brain and keeps you alive in a jar of fluids.
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Old 03-18-2017, 04:12 PM   #76
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Transhuman Space isn't the only possible setting with software-based AI.
As a reminder, you (and others) have been telling me Digital Mind works the way it does, assuming various aspects of the setting as well as their point values because it was crafted with GURPS Transhuman Space in mind. I have questioned that choice because there are many settings where non-standard mental functionality could be worth denoting, but which don't conform to all of the crunch included in the write-up for Digital Mind.

I cannot reconcile "Digital Mind was designed with GURPS Transhuman Space in mind."* as a defense for it being so setting specific, with trying to defend my assertions that it is too setting specific with "Transhuman Space[/B] isn't the only possible setting with software-based AI.". Is there a middle ground where these don't contradict?

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I understand that this bothers you, but on this I think the only point you can make is that "if I were redoing GURPS 4e with everything we have now, I wouldn't put it in the Basic Set as written". Which is legit, but makes a lot of assumptions.

Static and Neutralize exist in the Basic Set, but there they are again in specific versions which were then generalized for how they work on non-psi/magic stuff in Powers. Psionic Powers are in the Basic Set, and a full fledged Powers system in Powers. shrug

They're included in Basic because it was recognized that there was a need for these things. More fully fleshed, generalized versions aren't in Basic because Basic was over a decade ago and nobody had come up with them at the time. *shrug*
I have had it explained to me many times the constraints that affected how both Characters and Campaigns were written. Too many of those times were because I just didn't get the point... but I really am aware of it now. Knowing that something works a certain way purely because there wasn't space to do it another way can be important for understanding a trait. It is important for knowing if a trait might need revision, or an alternate version, such as for future material, or hypothetical homebrew rules.

At this point, I would like to be given the benefit of the doubt; I understand the surface level reasoning, but I'd like to go a bit deeper. That is how I learn, including correcting old mistakes. If there is no deeper reasoning... sounds like that itself is worth some discussion. :)

*Or if I misunderstood, then "...a setting like GURPS Transhuman Space."
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Last edited by Otaku; 03-21-2017 at 11:32 AM. Reason: Corrected Error with Quotation... I think. >.>
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Old 03-18-2017, 07:33 PM   #77
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
Only if you consider that all meat guys in a Fantasy setting also have all those traits because they can be ressurected by a mage.

Thats like saying: "well, since magical ressurection or superscience ressurection is a thing in my scenario, as long as the brain is intacted, every human beings have Unkillable 2 with breakable and trigger (and since your brain can be transplanted in a new body, ressurection too).
In a fantasy world, revival magic tends to be able to affect everyone, asking for such a thing would be redundant. However we are talking about a setting where those with the Digital Mind chips are given special privileges over the meat heads - if that allows them to be revived after their body was killed, then it is no different from buying any other Advantage with a Gadget Limitation.
The problem with thinking that it's okay because it relies on tech is either A) just flavor text for how your power works or B) Means that you shouldn't be paying any points for it, because just as you wouldn't pay points for any other piece of tech or equipment, just money.

If the GM in a fantasy game says that only Elves can be revived, then yes I expect them to have a form of Unkillable, with a Trigger.

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
All those traits (unkillable, reincarnation, duplication, extra life, yadda yadda) are all AUTOMATIC.

- Unkillable: if you destroy the physical brain, the AI is dead. So, not really unkillable.
Regular brains work like that too
- Reincarnation: after you die, you are reborn in a new life. Thats automatic - died, reborned.
For a machine, it would be more like an AI that exists inside the internet, and can remain a part of its memories alive (the core of the AI's essence, so, each reencarnation would be different)
- Duplication: you can upload your memory into an android copy... And if both copies remain connected, the same mind can control both (or more) as a single entity
- Possession: this is like Ultron from that bad Avengers movie; the AI invades an androids' factory, makes hundreds of killer bots and control them all as extensions of itself (like its "fingers") by wi fi.
- Extra Life: you have another body somewhere with a backup of your mind (perhaps you keep it up to date with constant newer back ups). Thats absolutely NOT the same as Digital Mind - your backup body is activated as soon as you're killed.

Now, note, nothing of that is close to Digital Mind. Digital Mind just allows you to have your memory storaged somewhere, but that doesn't give you any kind of a mean to restore yourself BY YOURSELF. In this regard is no different than needing a magical or superscience ressurection - just a little bit easier, but still dependent on external help. If someone removes your positronic brain and keeps you in a box, you are in no better position than if someone removes your brain and keeps you alive in a jar of fluids.
And yet Unkillable has the Trigger as a valid Limitation, one that requires some condition to be met before you can start recovering. Since you're dead during this, you don't have any method to restore yourself by yourself.
The Breakable gadget Limitation would mean that they can target your chip and break it to prevent you from coming back, which is the same as an enemy targeting your brain to damage your DM chip.
I'm not saying it is exactly like Unkillable with those Limitations I listed, I said comparable, in other words they are similar enough that I would expect a similar price on their head.

So maybe it's just me, but I'm having a hard time comprehending this. Either DM is not worth points, as everything it seems to give you is dependent on either having other Advantages with DM as their excuse, or reliant on tech just targeting them easier than other life forms (which is very setting dependent).
That or it's a vastly under priced Advantage since it allows you to cheat death so long as your brain remains in tact and there is someone willing to put you back together.
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Old 03-18-2017, 07:45 PM   #78
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

It's not just "there wasn't space", they literally weren't invented yet.

Things can (and have) been invented for specific game worlds or styles, but once having been invented were recognized as not actually being a setting-specific thing. Some need more tweaking than others to be generally useful, but just because something was invented for a specific setting doesn't make it only for that setting.

Digital Mind is an example of a trait that is of some use pretty much as originally written (although it could do with more clarity as it's not accompanied by the full Transhuman Space information) but could be much more useful in a generalized version, like the one I use. We'll have to wait for SJG to come up with some place to put it to make that official.

As another example that also dates back to 3e, that went through more iterations: "Vampiric Invulnerability". This is an advantage that got itself invented for GURPS Vampire: The Masquerade, which is pretty darn specific, but eventually was used in GURPS Blood Types, GURPS Compendium 1, and GURPS Undead with little more than a name change. The idea that vampires were resistant to some kinds of injury certainly wasn't unique to V:tM and was portable enough. It also shows up in GURPS Voodoo as "Inbetweener Invulnerability" even though inbetweeners aren't any kind of undead at all - but no wording or rules changes.

On the way to 4e it was re-examined, and we now have Injury Tolerance replacing it. It underwent a complete rewrite into a more generalized and modular trait.

On a related theme, Vampiric Bite is in Basic Set - it's so tightly bound to the vampire mythology that it requires blood sucking and even comes with fangs to bite with. It's now been generalized out into Leech, but Vampiric Bite was useful - Leech is just more useful.

Vampire-specific traits obviously have a lot of use because they're a stable of horror and show up in fantasy - not every vampire shrugs off bullets or sucks blood, but they're still handy traits. Robots and AI are endemic to scifi; chucking a useful supporting trait with a short description into the Basic Set pot to help support them, particularly when one of the lines SJG were definitely committed to supporting when 4e came out was Transhuman Space... Enh, why not? They stuffed World Jumper in there too.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:45 PM   #79
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

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It's not just "there wasn't space", they literally weren't invented yet.
What wasn't invented yet? I'm not suggesting anything dependent upon books beyond the Basic Set. I'm talking about stuff that had to be agreed upon for Basic. Digital Mind covers how digital minds may operate in a manner so significantly different from the baseline assumptions for a mind in GURPS, that it warrants being its own trait (in this case, an Advantage).

I've pointed out that this could easily apply to things other than a digital mind (lower case letters intentional); while almost anything can be justified with a specific enough setting, we don't have to do that here. With many GURPS traits, that isn't a problem; see "Telekinesis". Digital Mind goes beyond that, however, and makes many setting specific assumptions. Very setting specific, and not to support some overarching GURPS mechanic (like the standard Magic system).

So I questioned that. Understandably, the people who worked on and approved this trait have not yet weighed in (and perhaps cannot). I realize that Digital Mind could have been "Either we go with this version we perfected for this one setting, or we have to leave it out entirely." That doesn't preclude discussing how, had there only been enough time, space, or whatever available, it would have been better for most if it had been written up a bit differently. Which is what I've been fighting, and where I wonder if the disconnect begins.

I'm not trying to tear the people who worked on Basic a new one. I am trying to honestly consider if Digital Mind could have been better handled in Basic, either being a little more general for digital minds or even a bit more general for non-standard minds as a whole, as well as get to what someone might make use of now, regardless of what Basic has for it.

Hopefully, this clears some things up.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:48 PM   #80
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

How is the existing trait too "setting specific" for software-based AI?
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