03-18-2017, 01:59 PM | #71 |
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind
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03-18-2017, 02:30 PM | #72 | |
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: South Dakota, USA
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Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind
Quote:
If Digital Mind only shows up in Characters because it was needed for Transhuman Space, that supports my point. A setting specific trait presented in setting specific form really ought to be in that setting's core book. Based on some of the other comments made since I brought this up, "setting specific" doesn't mean a trait that is more than a numerical bonus with a CP cost. In fact, it can contain more than a little fluff; the issue arrives when, within the trait, you cannot separate the crunch from the fluff (or at least, as the person trying to use GURPS, cannot do so easily). We could have gotten the "generic, universal" version of Digital Mind in [Basic], with Transhuman Space featuring the actual Digital Mind Advantage. GURPS is designed to run a lot of things. I understand the fear of it becoming too abstract and bland, as I've heard HEROS criticized as being, but at least I am here because GURPS does generic and universal.
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My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :) |
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03-18-2017, 02:40 PM | #73 |
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind
Transhuman Space isn't the only possible setting with software-based AI.
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03-18-2017, 03:12 PM | #74 | |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind
Quote:
Static and Neutralize exist in the Basic Set, but there they are again in specific versions which were then generalized for how they work on non-psi/magic stuff in Powers. Psionic Powers are in the Basic Set, and a full fledged Powers system in Powers. shrug They're included in Basic because it was recognized that there was a need for these things. More fully fleshed, generalized versions aren't in Basic because Basic was over a decade ago and nobody had come up with them at the time. *shrug*
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03-18-2017, 03:33 PM | #75 | |
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
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Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind
Quote:
Thats like saying: "well, since magical ressurection or superscience ressurection is a thing in my scenario, as long as the brain is intacted, every human beings have Unkillable 2 with breakable and trigger (and since your brain can be transplanted in a new body, ressurection too). The "repairing" of the mechanical body is akin to magical healing; the transference of a positronic CPU to a new body is akin to the transposition of a brain to a new body (a higly superscience feat). All those traits (unkillable, reincarnation, duplication, extra life, yadda yadda) are all AUTOMATIC. - Unkillable: if you destroy the physical brain, the AI is dead. So, not really unkillable. Regular brains work like that too - Reincarnation: after you die, you are reborn in a new life. Thats automatic - died, reborned. For a machine, it would be more like an AI that exists inside the internet, and can remain a part of its memories alive (the core of the AI's essence, so, each reencarnation would be different) - Duplication: you can upload your memory into an android copy... And if both copies remain connected, the same mind can control both (or more) as a single entity - Possession: this is like Ultron from that bad Avengers movie; the AI invades an androids' factory, makes hundreds of killer bots and control them all as extensions of itself (like its "fingers") by wi fi. - Extra Life: you have another body somewhere with a backup of your mind (perhaps you keep it up to date with constant newer back ups). Thats absolutely NOT the same as Digital Mind - your backup body is activated as soon as you're killed. Now, note, nothing of that is close to Digital Mind. Digital Mind just allows you to have your memory storaged somewhere, but that doesn't give you any kind of a mean to restore yourself BY YOURSELF. In this regard is no different than needing a magical or superscience ressurection - just a little bit easier, but still dependent on external help. If someone removes your positronic brain and keeps you in a box, you are in no better position than if someone removes your brain and keeps you alive in a jar of fluids. |
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03-18-2017, 04:12 PM | #76 | ||
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: South Dakota, USA
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Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind
Quote:
I cannot reconcile "Digital Mind was designed with GURPS Transhuman Space in mind."* as a defense for it being so setting specific, with trying to defend my assertions that it is too setting specific with "Transhuman Space[/B] isn't the only possible setting with software-based AI.". Is there a middle ground where these don't contradict? Quote:
At this point, I would like to be given the benefit of the doubt; I understand the surface level reasoning, but I'd like to go a bit deeper. That is how I learn, including correcting old mistakes. If there is no deeper reasoning... sounds like that itself is worth some discussion. :) *Or if I misunderstood, then "...a setting like GURPS Transhuman Space."
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My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :) Last edited by Otaku; 03-21-2017 at 11:32 AM. Reason: Corrected Error with Quotation... I think. >.> |
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03-18-2017, 07:33 PM | #77 | ||
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Australia WA
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Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind
Quote:
The problem with thinking that it's okay because it relies on tech is either A) just flavor text for how your power works or B) Means that you shouldn't be paying any points for it, because just as you wouldn't pay points for any other piece of tech or equipment, just money. If the GM in a fantasy game says that only Elves can be revived, then yes I expect them to have a form of Unkillable, with a Trigger. Quote:
The Breakable gadget Limitation would mean that they can target your chip and break it to prevent you from coming back, which is the same as an enemy targeting your brain to damage your DM chip. I'm not saying it is exactly like Unkillable with those Limitations I listed, I said comparable, in other words they are similar enough that I would expect a similar price on their head. So maybe it's just me, but I'm having a hard time comprehending this. Either DM is not worth points, as everything it seems to give you is dependent on either having other Advantages with DM as their excuse, or reliant on tech just targeting them easier than other life forms (which is very setting dependent). That or it's a vastly under priced Advantage since it allows you to cheat death so long as your brain remains in tact and there is someone willing to put you back together. |
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03-18-2017, 07:45 PM | #78 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind
It's not just "there wasn't space", they literally weren't invented yet.
Things can (and have) been invented for specific game worlds or styles, but once having been invented were recognized as not actually being a setting-specific thing. Some need more tweaking than others to be generally useful, but just because something was invented for a specific setting doesn't make it only for that setting. Digital Mind is an example of a trait that is of some use pretty much as originally written (although it could do with more clarity as it's not accompanied by the full Transhuman Space information) but could be much more useful in a generalized version, like the one I use. We'll have to wait for SJG to come up with some place to put it to make that official. As another example that also dates back to 3e, that went through more iterations: "Vampiric Invulnerability". This is an advantage that got itself invented for GURPS Vampire: The Masquerade, which is pretty darn specific, but eventually was used in GURPS Blood Types, GURPS Compendium 1, and GURPS Undead with little more than a name change. The idea that vampires were resistant to some kinds of injury certainly wasn't unique to V:tM and was portable enough. It also shows up in GURPS Voodoo as "Inbetweener Invulnerability" even though inbetweeners aren't any kind of undead at all - but no wording or rules changes. On the way to 4e it was re-examined, and we now have Injury Tolerance replacing it. It underwent a complete rewrite into a more generalized and modular trait. On a related theme, Vampiric Bite is in Basic Set - it's so tightly bound to the vampire mythology that it requires blood sucking and even comes with fangs to bite with. It's now been generalized out into Leech, but Vampiric Bite was useful - Leech is just more useful. Vampire-specific traits obviously have a lot of use because they're a stable of horror and show up in fantasy - not every vampire shrugs off bullets or sucks blood, but they're still handy traits. Robots and AI are endemic to scifi; chucking a useful supporting trait with a short description into the Basic Set pot to help support them, particularly when one of the lines SJG were definitely committed to supporting when 4e came out was Transhuman Space... Enh, why not? They stuffed World Jumper in there too.
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All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table A Wiki for my F2F Group A neglected GURPS blog |
03-21-2017, 12:45 PM | #79 | |
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: South Dakota, USA
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Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind
Quote:
I've pointed out that this could easily apply to things other than a digital mind (lower case letters intentional); while almost anything can be justified with a specific enough setting, we don't have to do that here. With many GURPS traits, that isn't a problem; see "Telekinesis". Digital Mind goes beyond that, however, and makes many setting specific assumptions. Very setting specific, and not to support some overarching GURPS mechanic (like the standard Magic system). So I questioned that. Understandably, the people who worked on and approved this trait have not yet weighed in (and perhaps cannot). I realize that Digital Mind could have been "Either we go with this version we perfected for this one setting, or we have to leave it out entirely." That doesn't preclude discussing how, had there only been enough time, space, or whatever available, it would have been better for most if it had been written up a bit differently. Which is what I've been fighting, and where I wonder if the disconnect begins. I'm not trying to tear the people who worked on Basic a new one. I am trying to honestly consider if Digital Mind could have been better handled in Basic, either being a little more general for digital minds or even a bit more general for non-standard minds as a whole, as well as get to what someone might make use of now, regardless of what Basic has for it. Hopefully, this clears some things up.
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My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :) |
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03-21-2017, 12:48 PM | #80 |
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind
How is the existing trait too "setting specific" for software-based AI?
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advantage, advantage of the week, digital mind, week, [basic] |
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