De magic-fying Dungeon Fantasy

[foxanik]

Hello!

As we all know GURPS Magic is not the best magic system and IMO it should not be considered standard magic system. Unfortunately it found its way into basic Dungeon Fantasy, and now I'd like to hear if any of you, just like me, tried to cut out this magic system and replace it with different one?

I'm personally really liking Incantantion Magic and Sorcery, but I'm not sure if any of those two would be able to fully replace Cleric, Druid or Bard magic.

Sorcery needs a lot of points and I'm not sure if replacing Power Investiture or Magery would grant enough to build anything interesting.

On the other side we have Incantantion magic, which definitely can't do what Clerical or Druidic magic does - it would definitely need creating some new paths.

I would prefer to go full Incantantion magic, but there are not enough paths - maybe you have created some new and would like to share them?

[Kalzazz]

I've done Clerics using straight RPM without issue, so that is one possibility


But with Incantation, I could say imagine 'Path of Healing, 1d healing per level'

Since I am wrestling with why I want to use Incantation (not that the rules are difficult etc, I just don't really get where/why I want to use it instead of base RPM, giving me the 'solution in search of a problem' feel) can you share your take in Incantation and how you feel it fits?

[Varyon]

With Sorcery, instead of having healing spells (because, let's face it, the GURPS Healing Advantage isn't very good) you'd probably Afflict the target with some level of Regeneration. Unfortunately, that means a lot of points in Sorcery before you get a combat-relevant healing ability, and once you're at that point you've got a really powerful combat buff that you'll likely want to cast on your frontline fighters before they even get wounded (and that you'll only need to cast once per target per battle). It would look something like this:

Regeneration
Keywords: Buff
Full Cost: 105/155
Casting Roll: None. Use DX or an unarmed combat skill to make contact.
Range: C
Duration: 1 minute

The subject regains any lost HP at a rate of 1/second (level 1) or 10/second (level 2) over the course of the next minute.

Statistics: Affliction 1 (Fixed Duration +0%, Very Fast Regeneration +1000%, Melee C -30%, Reduced Duration 1/3 -10%, Sorcery -15%) [105] for level 1.
Level 2 replaces Very Fast Regeneration +1000% with Extreme Regeneration +1500%, increasing price to [155].

Druid magic probably isn't as tough, however.

....

For Incantation Magic, I don't yet have that book, but from what I understand it's based pretty heavily on RPM, which allows for both healing (it's one of the inherent modifiers) and buffs (either through granting an Advantage or just the Bestows a Bonus inherent modifier) pretty readily, so adding in new paths to handle clerical magic shouldn't be too difficult. Druidic magic is going to be fairly simple as well. The reason such weren't available in the book was likely just niche protection. You may wish to put some sort of limiters on healing (which RPM normally lacks) to stay consistent with the way GURPS normally handles such a skill penalty for repeated healings in the same day is an option. Personally, I favor having later healing spells simply overwrite older ones (provided the new one heals the same or more), but that can get complicated as characters take more wounds throughout the day.

[A Ladder]

Originally Posted by foxanik

Hello!

As we all know GURPS Magic is not the best magic system and IMO it should not be considered standard magic system. Unfortunately it found its way into basic Dungeon Fantasy, and now I'd like to hear if any of you, just like me, tried to cut out this magic system and replace it with different one?

I'm personally really liking Incantantion Magic and Sorcery, but I'm not sure if any of those two would be able to fully replace Cleric, Druid or Bard magic.

Sorcery needs a lot of points and I'm not sure if replacing Power Investiture or Magery would grant enough to build anything interesting.

I've run two, multiple month long DF campaigns using Sorcery as the magic in my setting. It was extremely successful and felt points balanced with the other classes. (One 9 month long one that used Magic as Powers, before Sorcery came out, which was hilariously almost exactly Sorcery). The magic templates (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) require a bit more tweaking than just taking PI and Magery and putting those points into Sorcery. Remember, Sorcery spells do not need high IQ, you can skim one or two levels off of those template's IQ to fill in the gaps in power, IMO.

Another option (which is what I did in my second campaign) is to do Clerical/Druidic magic as Divine Favor. Similar to Sorcery, but taking a different approach to Magic as Powers.

Originally Posted by Varyon

... (because, let's face it, the GURPS Healing Advantage isn't very good)...

??? What? Umm....Healing is AMAZING! I disagree in the strongest sense. In fact, I might be limiting Healing in future campaigns as it allows recovery from injury, disease, poisons, and any other harmful effect at a cheap cost and quick recovery to the caster.

[Emerald Cat]

Originally Posted by Varyon

With Sorcery, instead of having healing spells (because, let's face it, the GURPS Healing Advantage isn't very good) you'd probably Afflict the target with some level of Regeneration. Unfortunately, that means a lot of points in Sorcery before you get a combat-relevant healing ability, and once you're at that point you've got a really powerful combat buff that you'll likely want to cast on your frontline fighters before they even get wounded (and that you'll only need to cast once per target per battle).

Yeah, building recovery spells is one of the few problems I have with Sorcery.

One issue you didn't mention was the IQ - 6 activation roll Healing requires. Being able to succeed at that roll reliably is expensive. Especially if you are using variants that receive penalties.

My solution is to replace the IQ - 6 roll with an Esoteric Medicine(Sorcery) or Physiology roll depending on the setting. This makes healing much more affordable. I also find it aesthetically pleasing that healing spells require medical knowledge to work.

[ericthered]

Where does the -6 come from?

With scorcery, buy reduced FP on healing if you have a big enough pool. while applying immediate preparation required. You still have to pay 1 FP per use, but you don't have to pay 10 FP to heal 10 HP.

[Ulzgoroth]

Divine Favor would be the obvious play for Cleric and maybe Druid replacement, unless there's a reason you don't want to use it.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

One issue you didn't mention was the IQ - 6 activation roll Healing requires.

LOLWAT?

Originally Posted by Basic Set Page 59

To activate your power,
concentrate for one second and make
an IQ roll. Roll at -2 if the subject is
unconscious.

You roll at -6 only if you're trying to fix a crippled limb.

There's also a highly varying penalty for curing diseases with little guideline on how to assign it, but it's not on top of a flat -6 or something.

[mlangsdorf]

I've had good experiences with Divine Favor as a clerical replacement. At 250 points, a Saint isn't as versatile as a Cleric, and the Lay On Hands/Flesh Wounds combo isn't a good choice for in-combat healing. But Smite is an amazing ability for a fighting cleric, and the ability to do just about anything - though not predictably - through prayer helps with the versatility. And as point totals go up, the Saint gets more learned prayers and more versatility, at a more balanced price than just 1 CP for a new spell.

My current DF derived game started with 200 point characters with a fair bit of social abilities and uses Sorcery and Divine Favor. The starting priest hasn't been terribly powerful, but Flesh Wounds has let her disable traps by walking through them and healing up later, and she's used Confidence a couple of times as a cheap Luck substitute. As her point levels go up, her power will increase - she's almost got enough points to get Lay On Hands, which does provide good out of combat healing.

My point is, Divine Favor is a good solution, especially if your wizards are using Sorcery or Chinese Elemental Magic.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by A Ladder

??? What? Umm....Healing is AMAZING! I disagree in the strongest sense. In fact, I might be limiting Healing in future campaigns as it allows recovery from injury, disease, poisons, and any other harmful effect at a cheap cost and quick recovery to the caster.

2 HP per 1 FP is going to mean someone doing a good amount of healing in a battle is going to run out of FP quickly. The full second of concentration needed (the description indicates you need to maintain contact for a second, not just touch the target and take a Concentration maneuver) greatly limits mobility, and the -3 per further healing means you typically want to go big or hold off. Healing crippling is incredibly difficult, diseases can easily be both difficult and costly, poisons to my knowledge aren't neutralized by Healing (you can fix the toxic damage, but can't prevent it from recurring), and fixing other effects calls for an expensive +60% Enhancement. You need a +50% Enhancement to be able to use it to fix yourself up. As far as I'm concerned, [30] is an incredibly high price for that (note the above Enhancements are [+18] and [+15], respectively).

Granted, Healing is pretty solid outside of combat, particularly if you have somewhere to rest for a while, but for a cleric's usual duties (healing the frontline fighters to keep them fighting), it leaves much to be desired.