[Basic] Skill of the Week: Boating

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I'd probably ... create a new Boating specialty for the job.

This seems to be the best fix, IMO. Boating (Ship), perhaps?

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Boating explicitly excludes larger craft - "For large vessels that require multiple crewmen on a "bridge", use Seamanship (see Crewman, p. 185) and Shiphandling (p. 220)."

I think this is the key reason why Seamanship + Shiphandling is needed. It's not the size of the ship that matters, it's the size of the crew. For large ships that don't require multiple crewmen (presumably because of a high degree of automation) you'll use Boating instead, typically Large Powerboat.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I think this is the key reason why Seamanship + Shiphandling is needed. It's not the size of the ship that matters, it's the size of the crew. For large ships that don't require multiple crewmen (presumably because of a high degree of automation) you'll use Boating instead, typically Large Powerboat.

But that distinction does not exist for either submarines, aircraft, or spacecraft. Submarine covers the steering of submarines regardless of how large the crew, and large subs (like the fast attack subs referenced in the skill description) do indeed require several people working together to execute the full range of maneuvering options. Are you suggesting that Submarine and Pilot should not be valid in those circumstances?

[Tinman]

In my Monster Hunters campaign that just ended (lasted 2 years) my commando had boating for a few different specialties.

It was not used often, but it was used. Having it was critical when needed.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

But that distinction does not exist for either submarines, aircraft, or spacecraft. Submarine covers the steering of submarines regardless of how large the crew, and large subs (like the fast attack subs referenced in the skill description) do indeed require several people working together to execute the full range of maneuvering options. Are you suggesting that Submarine and Pilot should not be valid in those circumstances?

If your large sub requires coordination of multiple operators to control, obviously you cannot control it with one person rolling a DX-based skill! I mean, how would that make any sense?

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I summarized, but I do not believe I misstated anything. I listed the skills, I did not go into their relative roles.

You said that the submarine needs a helmsman with a specific skill. Which is not remotely the implication of the rules being discussed.

[Walrus]

Well, there's at least one certain distinction between surface vessels and Submarines, Aircrafts and Spaceships. Surfaces ships operate only with two dimensions, while all other operate in three dimensions. That may be a reason to require separate operations skill to "drive" them.

[sir_pudding]

Some boating has come up a couple times in a few of my DF games.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Walrus

Well, there's at least one certain distinction between surface vessels and Submarines, Aircrafts and Spaceships. Surfaces ships operate only with two dimensions, while all other operate in three dimensions. That may be a reason to require separate operations skill to "drive" them.

They don't require a separate operation skill to drive them. Submarines, Airships, and Spaceships can all be controlled either by a pilot with the appropriate control skill, or by a crewman with the appropriate Crewman skill under command of someone with the appropriate Shiphandling skill.

Airplanes do appear to require a dedicated pilot, not just a crewman at the helm.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

If your large sub requires coordination of multiple operators to control, obviously you cannot control it with one person rolling a DX-based skill! I mean, how would that make any sense?

The answer is in time scale - you have one person making second-by-second steering decisions, and several other people making slower decisions (perhaps minute-by-minute or so) that influence things. The latter group is setting a bias on the vessel, around which the single operator steers.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

You said that the submarine needs a helmsman with a specific skill. Which is not remotely the implication of the rules being discussed.

I misspoke, because I wrote that after reading the description of Submarine (Large Sub) which does seem to indicate such a need - the Crewman and Submarine skills seem at odds to me in this case.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

The answer is in time scale - you have one person making second-by-second steering decisions, and several other people making slower decisions (perhaps minute-by-minute or so) that influence things. The latter group is setting a bias on the vessel, around which the single operator steers.

What are the latter people supposedly doing in this situation? I can't map this description to anything.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I misspoke, because I wrote that after reading the description of Submarine (Large Sub) which does seem to indicate such a need - the Crewman and Submarine skills seem at odds to me in this case.

Don't see it myself. But anyway, I think I've cleared up my point there.