Jab in the face

[GWJ]

I'm wondering how you resolve generic brawling. Isn't -5 too difficult to hit? IMO simple jab in the face is not something what should require big deal of training. But in GURPS for Joe Average there are 3 options:
1) AoA (+4 to hit) (still, with -1, but without any possibilities to defense after that)
2) Telegraphic Attack (isn't it opposite for jab?)
3) Very loosy chance to hit...


In my games, not-unarmed-trained PCs are never hitting the face, they always go for torso or sometimes vitals (with MA optional rule). And they usually win vs opponents doing 1), 2), or 3)… How it's going on your game sessions?

[Dalillama]

Have you ever tried to hit someone in the face who's trying to avoid getting hit? It's harder than the movies make it look. Watch untrained people fighting and you'll see a whole lotta misses, a lotta telegraphic attacks, Slams, etc.

In many cases a 'jab' would be modeled in GURPS as a feint rather than an attack, inasmuch as it's mostly there to distract the opponent rather than do damage.
More generally, untrained people trying to seriously punch someone in the face usually do use a telegraphic attack, and hit, if they do, because their untrained opponent has weak defences and/or wasn't expecting it.

[khorboth]

And there's another option. Evaluate... Evaluate... Evaluate...

Jab every fourth second. Spend the rest of the time using defenses. Remembering that every round is one second helps a lot.

Untrained people circling and getting up to the +3 from considering is not at all unrealistic. Neither is them launching lots of attacks and only hitting one of every 3 or 4 in combat.

Remember that there's a +3 or +4 (I can never remember) for non-combat use of combat skills, so hitting a speed bag is much easier than hitting the face of someone who might hit you back.

[Boge]

I think surprise attack should come into play more often. It doesn't seem that hard to get that first shot in when your opponent isn't completely ready. Two people having an argument and then one of them throws that first punch. That's easier to hit than when they're dancing toe to toe.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Boge

I think surprise attack should come into play more often. It doesn't seem that hard to get that first shot in when your opponent isn't completely ready. Two people having an argument and then one of them throws that first punch. That's easier to hit than when they're dancing toe to toe.

If you're surprising someone, coming out with an AoA is a good move. They'll probably not be able to hit back immediately. Telegraphic isn't necessarily, since they can still defend when surprised. (Obviously Telegraphic is a given if you're blindsiding them rather than just escalating quickly.)

If you're surprising them less than you thought, of course, that AoA can backfire...

[Plane]

If buying up combat skills at 4/level is too expensive, there's the option of buying off technique penalties (even though as a whole they never seem as good a deal as the overal combat skill) like using targeted attack: punch/face you could spend 4 points to buy off -3 to hit the face so it's only -2 to hit it. TA Boxing Punch/Face is actually one of the examples on MA68.

I think more people would bother with TAs if it were classified as Easy instead of Hard, needing to pay 2 to get that first benefit is a hurdle.

Originally Posted by GWJ

I'm wondering how you resolve generic brawling. Isn't -5 too difficult to hit? IMO simple jab in the face is not something what should require big deal of training. But in GURPS for Joe Average there are 3 options:
1) AoA (+4 to hit) (still, with -1, but without any possibilities to defense after that)
2) Telegraphic Attack (isn't it opposite for jab?)
3) Very loosy chance to hit...

Telegraphing isn't the opposite of a jab at all, and you can combine the +4 and +4 to get a +8 to hit, meaning you're a net +3, so skill 13 for a DX 10 person.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Have you ever tried to hit someone in the face who's trying to avoid getting hit? It's harder than the movies make it look. Watch untrained people fighting and you'll see a whole lotta misses, a lotta telegraphic attacks, Slams, etc.

The "trying to avoid getting hit" is them making dodges/parries, probably at +2 since average people telegraph their hits.

The other aspect is you're busy keeping your guard up to dodge/parry yourself so you can't get the AOA +4

Originally Posted by khorboth

And there's another option. Evaluate... Evaluate... Evaluate...

Jab every fourth second. Spend the rest of the time using defenses. Remembering that every round is one second helps a lot.

Untrained people circling and getting up to the +3 from considering is not at all unrealistic. Neither is them launching lots of attacks and only hitting one of every 3 or 4 in combat.

Remember that there's a +3 or +4 (I can never remember) for non-combat use of combat skills, so hitting a speed bag is much easier than hitting the face of someone who might hit you back.

You can make telegraphed all-out: determined attacks against speed-bags for a +8 since you don't have to worry about parrying them (unless of course the 2nd hit in a 2nd is done as an Aggressive Parry against the rebound?)

[AlexanderHowl]

Brawling at DX+2 is only 4 CP, which is not a bad investment if you are planning on punching people in the face (the damage bonus is not a bad thing either). A barroom brawler is probably going to have ST 11 and Brawling at DX+2. They will probably be using a lot of Telegraphic Attacks to knock out his opponent (punching to the vitals [see Martial Arts, p. 137] is likely more probable that punching the face for an experienced opponent, as it is more likely to hit and gives the same benefit).

Their opponent will likely be doing the same thing, as they will desire a quick victory with minimal damage to themselves. Of course, that means that they will be attacking with a '13' and defending with a '11', so they will be exchanging quite a few hits, even though they will be dealing 1d-1 crushing damage with each punch. They will probably be capable of taking out an inexperienced fighter without much trouble though.

If brawling is a common event at the end of the night though, expect there to be a few old salts (or old bouncers) that have spent the last twenty years getting practical experience. That group might have Brawling at DX+6. They will be the type that will not even bother with the Telegraphic attack and will empty out the entire bar when a major fight breaks out. They will likely also have ST 15, DX 12, and HT 12, as lesser individuals would not have survived to gain their experience, meaning that they will be making punches to the vitals at '15' and defend on a '12'. If they hit, they will do a solid 1d+1 crushing damage. If they wish, they can even punch the skull at '11' and, if they hit, do an average of 10 points of injury with their fist.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by GWJ

I'm wondering how you resolve generic brawling. Isn't -5 too difficult to hit? IMO simple jab in the face is not something what should require big deal of training. But in GURPS for Joe Average there are 3 options:
1) AoA (+4 to hit) (still, with -1, but without any possibilities to defense after that)

It's a higher risk obviously but you are gambling on getting that knock down or at least stun pens mitigating the returning attack. But you could always burn a FP* and keep you active defence options. You could make it a committed attack (determined) which is a compromise of course.

Originally Posted by GWJ

2) Telegraphic Attack (isn't it opposite for jab?)

Well what's a jab ;-) ? In abstract it's a straight punch normally with your leading hand off your leading foot, but GURPS is a RPG not a boxing class, so it could be cross or hook or whatever as well. Basically what kind of punch you throw in GURPS is a matter of description and chosen attack option. Personally I call the kind of quick jabs you throw to keep an opponent back and busy as defensive and/or deceptive attacks possibly even a combination in GURPS terms. But nothing's stopping you popping some chap in the chops with a straight punch as a AoA(S) or Telegraphic or deceptive or what have you.

Originally Posted by GWJ

3) Very loosy chance to hit...

Depends on how good you are at it really. So OK I know that sounds a bit pat, but fighting people effectively is quite hard without some experience or training. Personally I make Brawling a pretty instinctive natural skill that it would be hard for a lot of likely PC's to avoid picking up a point or two in, in a lot of settings. TA:(punch, face) is also pretty natural attack I have little issue people with some fighting experience taking points in it withoit having to justify it.

Originally Posted by GWJ

In my games, not-unarmed-trained PCs are never hitting the face, they always go for torso or sometimes vitals (with MA optional rule). And they usually win vs opponents doing 1), 2), or 3)… How it's going on your game sessions?

It makes sense -3 to hit and a HT test is better than -5 to hit and a HT test**, but that will be true for all skill levels really. Even if you don't need that extra relative +2 to actually land the punch you can leverage it to make it -1 to Active defences deceptive and so on.

Personally I run a house rule that gives a SM+1 layer of ordinary HP over vitals that means you have to do 2 points of damage to access that HT test. (and that makes it harder for untrained punchers to get there unless they have good basic ST stats).




*Generally speaking I think burning FP for Extra Effort options in this way as well as feverish defence etc is quite in-keeping with inexperienced fighters and fits nicely with the ideas in the side bar on MApg113. It allows them to partially compensate for unintentionally going all out, but at the cost of they wind themselves quicker than they might otherwise do if they were reacting in a more controlled way like a more experienced fighter might. In fact spending FP could be unintentional just as doing the AoA is. (I should say that since I use Last gasp and allow the option for Extra Effort to cost AP rather than FP this works out slightly differently at my table)


**of course armour can be a factor, I'd say generally speaking if you are punching someone in armour something's gone badly wrong, but in some settings there are some pretty common options for DR1 on the torso that are pretty socially acceptable for a lot of people in a lot of situations and not looking like your out to cause trouble.

[Plane]

Maybe we could house-rule some sort of semi-random hit location where if you take a -4, you have a 50/50 chance of hitting the face or neck instead of a -5 to hit one in particular?

MA137 by comparison, had:

a 1 in 6 chance of hitting either the nose or the skull �� (normally -7) when targeting the face (-5)
targeting extremities (-4) had a 1 in 6 chance of hitting joints (normally -7)
targeting limbs (-2) had a 1 in 6 chance of hitting veins/arteries or joints (either -5).
targeting torso (-0) had a 1 in 6 chance of hitting vitals (normally -3)
targeting neck (-5) had a 1 in 6 chance of hitting veins/arteries (normally -8) or spine (normally -8)

Normal requirements (direction, attack type) still apply though.

Abdomens (instant armor 19) at -1 to hit are a better example of this idea though, since it gives a 1/6 vitals (norm -3) 1/6 groin (norm -3) 1/6 pelvis (norm -3) 1/2 digestive tract (normally -2) split.

If the precedent is that you can design a basic penalty (be it -1 or -4) giving a 50% chance of hitting something 1 worse (be it -2 or -5) then above the torso" being 50/50 chance of hitting the neck/face would seem to emulate how abdomen works.

Since jaw is defined as part of the face (like the nose) and since it's easier to hit than the nose, might be interesting to have it work where face hits are 1=nose 2-4=jaw 5-6=cheek (normal face)