Examples of "surprise" from B393?

[Lord Azagthoth]

When somebody is verbal violent, I constantly taking Wait maneuvers. I won't hit him first, but if he does anything suspicious, I'll punch his nose.

When the initiator starts to swing his punch, sword, or whatever, aims his gun but has a lower Basic Speed but he didn't surprise his opponent (because they were already in an heated argument, threatening each other, or whatever), highest Basic Speed goes first.

If the initiator wasn't angry, laughing with his future victim, casually talking to him, he might be able to surprise him with an unarmed attack, or weapon attack if he succeeds his Fast Draw roll. If he fails his Fast Draw roll, the opponent will be aware, turn sequence start and the fastest one begins his turn.

You can make this much more complicated. Is the initiator acting, the opponent might notice this (not surprised) or not (surprised). When the initiator draws a weapon, the victim might see it (Vision roll or be surprised).

[Gnome]

Ok, here's my issue. Let's suppose A has a Speed of 7, B has a Speed of 6 and C has a Speed of 5. B decides to take a swing at C, thus initiating combat. No one is surprised. Does turn order proceed to C? In that case, A goes last, even though he's the fastest (doesn't seem fair). Or does turn order now begin with A? In that case, B gets to strike twice before C gets a single turn, which also doesn't seem fair. How do you handle this dilemma? Or is it not a dilemma at all?

[coronatiger]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Ok, here's my issue. Let's suppose A has a Speed of 7, B has a Speed of 6 and C has a Speed of 5. B decides to take a swing at C, thus initiating combat. No one is surprised. Does turn order proceed to C? In that case, A goes last, even though he's the fastest (doesn't seem fair). Or does turn order now begin with A? In that case, B gets to strike twice before C gets a single turn, which also doesn't seem fair. How do you handle this dilemma? Or is it not a dilemma at all?

We recently had a combat where one participant with middling speed took the first action. Then we started at the top of the list to see who got to act next. Most people had to spend their first action on rolling to "unstun" from the surprise attack.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Ok, here's my issue. Let's suppose A has a Speed of 7, B has a Speed of 6 and C has a Speed of 5. B decides to take a swing at C, thus initiating combat. No one is surprised. Does turn order proceed to C? In that case, A goes last, even though he's the fastest (doesn't seem fair). Or does turn order now begin with A? In that case, B gets to strike twice before C gets a single turn, which also doesn't seem fair. How do you handle this dilemma? Or is it not a dilemma at all?

1. B
2. A
3. C
4. A
5. B
6. C

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Ok, here's my issue.

Fair enough.

Ok, here's my issue. Suppose combat time starts. A chooses Do Nothing. B Attacks. C Attacks. A's player changes his mind, and now wants to fight "in the first round". Should the order become B-A-C or B-C-A? Or would you say "too bad, A. Speedy Ninja, you already had your chance and Did Nothing"? How does this differ from Gnome's question?

Here's my other issue. Suppose combat time starts. A chooses Wait (attack B if B attacks. B attacks. C attacks. The order is B-A-C (as David suggests above). Or since Waits can interrupt, you might write it even as A-B-C. A does get his turn "in the first (nonexistent) round", but it's not first. How does this different from the case above, and from Gnome's question?

Here's a third issue. Combat time starts, A chooses Wait (See what C does, joining any combat). The order is B-C-A. How does this case differ from the other three?

Now, imagine all three scenarios, only eliminate the artificial "combat time starts" statement, and stop imagining that as the necessary beginning of a round.

Why would A's speed override all three possible courses of action that their player might choose, and force them to go first "in the first round"? Can A not make any of those choices, and must always act before seeing what other characters do? Is that a limit just in the first "round", or all rounds? The faster character has free choice of when they act relative to other characters. If they're choosing to sit on their thumbs, why do they deserve backsies after they belatedly realize that was a mistake, and want their character to act before the events that the player is reacting to even happen?

If player A exercises his backsies to go before B actually acts, we get philosophical questions, like why did A act when B hadn't done anything? When the cops review the security camera footage of the brawl, who gets charged with instigating the fight? A says "but B started it", yet the film clearly shows him striking first.

After passing your turn by not taking action (even a "delay", i.e. Wait), how many other turns or rounds can you wait before deciding to reorder things? One other character? Two? Any number up to your next time to act? Any number up to the start of the next notional round?

If you deliberately delay your turn but still get to act by asserting your Basic Speed rights, do we copy That Other Game and permanently shift your relative position in the order -- and wouldn't that make A "slow" relative to anyone else joining the fight in a later round, even though he's supposed to be fast?

If the order doesn't permanently shift, how do you handle the munchkins that wait until the end of the turn to suddenly "decide" to act, knowing that they're going first next turn, and thus getting a double-Maneuver back-to-back, as if they had ATR, and so getting away with things like choosing AoA knowing that they won't actually lose any defense?

Keep in mind that GURPS turns are meant to be fluid and overlapping, resolved sequentially simply because that's the only manageable way to do it. A isn't just standing rigidly still for an entire second (!) until his turn comes to act. It's merely that his hesitation yields right of way in that initial flurry of blows. That doesn't seem particularly objectionable or hard to visualize to me. Anyone that wants to be sure they get to act first has the burden of having to choose to use their initiative to seize the initiative. "You snooze, you lose", as the saying goes.

Though it's also worth nothing that going first isn't always an undiluted advantage. If you're playing rocket tag, yes. But it's also valuable to see what others do, to take advantage of positioning or opportunities they open up. Fights aren't just standing face-to-face, trading blows to see who has the highest DPS-to-HP ratio. And so not getting to go first isn't really that traumatic of a deal.

In fact, the players are presumably choosing not to act in these scenarios precisely because they perceived a relative advantage to not attacking immediately, compared to letting the other side possibly get first blood. There's a cost involved in that choice, and the players knew it, but A still thought he was better off by not attacking at the top of the order. That was his choice; he might as well accept the consequences.

The earlier version of the question was a better one: what Maneuvers do you consider the earlier "skipped" players as having taken? (It might matter for Active Defense or some other obscure cases.) Just take their informal descriptions of what they were doing as their choice of Maneuver, if it has to be categorized. Someone ignoring the ongoing argument and instead dialing 911 doesn't get to say they were taking All-out Defense. A player that said they were being cautious and watching for an attack might. The player that says they pull their knife just in case, holding it at the ready, has the option to Parry rather than Dodge, while 911 guy doesn't (unless you can parry with an improvised iPhone X as a "weapon"). And so on. The players were describing their actions. It's not usually difficult to find an appropriate choice if it even becomes relevant.

There's not really a need to insist that all combat must be done in complete rounds which always start at the top of the order with everyone alert and prepared.

[Boge]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Ok, here's my issue. Let's suppose A has a Speed of 7, B has a Speed of 6 and C has a Speed of 5. B decides to take a swing at C, thus initiating combat. No one is surprised. Does turn order proceed to C? In that case, A goes last, even though he's the fastest (doesn't seem fair). Or does turn order now begin with A? In that case, B gets to strike twice before C gets a single turn, which also doesn't seem fair. How do you handle this dilemma? Or is it not a dilemma at all?

I would go with B attacks and C gets a chance to defend, then go turns A, C, and B in that order for the remainder of combat.

It's stupid if people are just chatting, even arguing and B starts to attack but you say, "Wait! Before you do, A jumps in and attacks first!" No, A wouldn't have attacked if B wouldn't have attacked, so A shouldn't attack first. Combat doesn't start until B actually attacked. At that point, you have to keep the turns fair. So I'd personally go with A, C, then B.

Gurps doesn't play round by round, but turn by turn. So whether it's ACB, or BAC, or CBA, it's the same turn sequence. Action is faster than reaction and B acted fastest, thus getting the first turn to begin combat. From that point, I'd just say B got the first turn and then you go by speeds with whoever is remaining. BACBACBAC

[Black Leviathan]

Originally Posted by Plane

Where do you think the role for psychology might begin? It seems like there ought to be chance for anybody to read people.

B181/B216 would have someone with a point in Body Language (Per-1) way ahead of someone rolling at Psychology at default (IQ-6)
.

Psychology is a useful skill but it's not magical. You could certainly look for behavioral cues that someone was becoming more aggressive but you'd have to roll contested if someone was concealing that behavior to hide their ambush. It could certainly reveal inconsistent motivation in someone. You could recognize signs of psychopathy but most of this is roll-by-10 stuff.

Body Language is just to give you that moment of warning that someone is winding up for the strike, digging their toes in, lowering their center of balance, checking the location of people around the room.