Fate vs. Destiny vs. ??? (Ethereals)

[Acolyte]

Alright, for various reasons I've been considering this for a while, and the recent spate of discussion about Ethereal-centered campaigns has convinced me that other people might be interested in this.

If the Fate/Destiny dualism that overshadows everything about In Nomine was in fact a Fate/Destiny/??? triadism, with the third Word representing the Ethereal position of either eternity as a Dream-Shade or reincarnation, what is that Word?

Reincarnation is an obvious choice, but that lacks the punch and grandeur of Fate and Destiny. I'm looking for something that isn't "off" the 180 degree angle (straight line) between Fate and Destiny, but something that by its very nature changes the pattern into three 120 degree angles.

A big front-runner for me is Wyrd. This mythic concept, typically linked to Norse myths only but actually present in some form for a lot of Celtic and preGermanic mythos, is that to be great you also have to be terrible, or your greatness is also destructive in some way. This is also present in Greek myths, though not called such (Theseus doesn't raise the white sails and so Aegeas commits suicide, the whole Oedipus thing), and it survives to more modern fiction (the Byronic Hero, Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights, etc). However, it's not necessarily right, because in all these tales it's clear that only heroic people have this dual heroism/darkness--this isn't the purview of the common man. I'd prefer something that everyone would have.

Another word with potential is Asha, the Zoroastrian name for the proto-Indo-Iranian religious concept of the "right order and truth of the universe." This can be found in early Hindu texts as well, and can be linked to early Greek philosophy and even some Greek-influenced Christian theology, about the basic ordering of the universe. This works well for a lot of things ("it's better to be ordered than selfless or selfish" is a playable concept), but has the problem of being based in the essence of the universe, ie, the Symphony, ie, aligned with Heaven.

Anybody got any other thoughts?

[ISNorden]

I'd go with Wyrd--not because I favor the Norse pantheon (though I do), but because that word has no "good vs. evil" overtones in the original sources. It simply means "what has become", the future as a consequence of past actions. (This includes older incarnations, since you're including reincarnation as a possible afterlife in your campaign.) It's also a short, simple Anglo-Saxon word--easy for players to say and spell.

How does the concept mesh with In Nomine's mechanics? Well... Sometimes Wyrd looks favorable to the hero of a story, sometimes not (as shown by your examples). And like the IN definitions of Fate and Destiny, Wyrd is difficult to avoid or change once it's set in motion; only a major, continued effort can do so. The story of Nornagest comes to mind: when he was a baby, his mother heard a prophecy that he would live only as long as a nearby candle had not burned away. She blew the candle out, preserved it for years...Nornagest lived to be 300, but accepted Chriistianity by then. He was asked to light the doomed candle as proof of his faith; unfortunately, the curse kicked in and Nornagest died despite his conversion.

In the IN universe, that birth-curse wasn't a Fate--because it didn't depend on a selfish choice or send him to Hell. It probably wasn't a Destiny either--because it didn't advance Heaven's cause, in spite of Nornagest's willingness to prove Christianity stronger. But it definitely has that "must happen, influenced by the Marches" feeling of a Wyrd!

[William]

Bodhi could be seen as freeing the awakened practitioner from both Fate and Destiny, leading to an existence outside of the heavens, hells, and rebirths. Canonically, Buddhahood is divine and leads to Heaven; Hinduism generates ethereals but approaches the divine in obscure ways, and practitioners could pursue variously-translated states of moksha, nirvana or samadhi.

The Western Gnostic tradition would regard Fate and Destiny as facets of a deeper concept of "effectiveness," and might in fact regard souls who achieve either as being trapped and less personally effective than they otherwise might be (though of course the claim of Heaven and Hell is that Destiny and Fate are the most effective you can be, in one direction or another). Followers of this way would seek gnosis.

[Acolyte]

I have to admit, Gnosis is compelling. Sometimes in IN when you die without achieving a Fate or Destiny, you just vanish (instead of being reincarnated)...who's to say those souls aren't OUTSIDE the whole concept of the Symphony, having reached Gnosis? I can easily imagine a bunch of dream-shades working with Ethereals in some Far Marches Domain to have them reach Gnosis rather than moving on to a different reward. And Gnosis can be achieved with a life opposed to both selflessness and selfishness. I hadn't considered that, really. Ho hum. That's nice. However, Gnosis is a state, not an even which must be achieved (like Fate/Destiny), which makes it a bit less appealing.

With dharma and a lot of other Hindu/Buddhist concept words, which I had considered, I find they have the same problem as Asha, namely, that they rely on same basic ordering of the cosmos which in IN is covered by the Symphony which is at least theoretically a Heaven thing.

Kismet's another classic word, but like Fortune I think it doesn't have the richness of implications to truly pose an opposite to either Fate or Destiny.

[tHEhERETIC]

Excellent ideas all, but let me take a hard left in this discussion.

Apotheosis.

A mortal becoming a god. A mortal so embodying Ye Olde virtues that they become a god of such virtue. This would cheese off the celestials in a terrible way, being de facto a Word-Bound human spirit in the Marches, another new and restless god wondering why exactly we're cowering from Jehovah anyway?

Yeah, I like 'em dark. And actually I like the Buddhist notion of being released from the whole paradigm.

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

Excellent ideas all, but let me take a hard left in this discussion.

Apotheosis.

A mortal becoming a god. A mortal so embodying Ye Olde virtues that they become a god of such virtue. This would cheese off the celestials in a terrible way, being de facto a Word-Bound human spirit in the Marches, another new and restless god wondering why exactly we're cowering from Jehovah anyway?

Yeah, I like 'em dark. And actually I like the Buddhist notion of being released from the whole paradigm.

Not all Ethereal spirits consider themselves deities, though (remember all those fictional characters?) And not all pagan religions teach that humans can reach godhood...or that they can/should vanish from the cosmos as an ideal state.

With those problems in mind--what about Legend as a culture-neutral term for a soul's ultimate goal from the Ethereal viewpoint? Someone who has become legendary isn't necessarily divine, nor is he a perfect embodiment of virtue or sin. In fact, there are as many paths to Legend as there are belief systems rooted in the Marches; I'd say that someone who strove to follow one of those systems as perfectly as possible would have achieved a Legend of his own. Not a completely bright or dark future, but a memorable one either way...and memories keep the Marches alive.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by ISNorden

Not all Ethereal spirits consider themselves deities, though (remember all those fictional characters?) And not all pagan religions teach that humans can reach godhood...or that they can/should vanish from the cosmos as an ideal state.

With those problems in mind--what about Legend as a culture-neutral term for a soul's ultimate goal from the Ethereal viewpoint? Someone who has become legendary isn't necessarily divine, nor is he a perfect embodiment of virtue or sin. In fact, there are as many paths to Legend as there are belief systems rooted in the Marches; I'd say that someone who strove to follow one of those systems as perfectly as possible would have achieved a Legend of his own.

Better. But does he continue to exist as a discreet being, or does the Legend itself take on a life beyond the person who spawned it? Does he change as it gets retold?

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

Better. But does he continue to exist as a discreet being, or does the Legend itself take on a life beyond the person who spawned it? Does he change as it gets retold?

True, a Legendary dreamshade could split off from the original soul who "inspired" it--especially if that person also reached a Fate/Destiny. (This usually happens in "3-out-of-3" cases, too--the Legend creates a splinter dreamshade, and the true soul gets reincarnated...or sent wherever the GM decides a balanced soul goes.) For souls that achieve only their Legendary potential, they'd become the core dreamshade who spun others off as their stories changed in the telling. Legendary souls are free-willed dreamshades who don't lose their Celestial Forces; their offshoots are figments who can become free-willed normally.

[Acolyte]

I LIKE THAT. Legend is a great word, and I like the emphasis on greatness/the story to oppose selfishness/evil and selflessness/good. True heroes are rarely selfless (they take pride in their actions) or selfish (they risk their lives for others).

I am reminded of Joseph Campbell's concept of the "Heroic Journey" to which most mythic patterns ascribe, where the hero leaves his comfort zone, travels to a dangerous place, and returns with the Elixir (physical or metaphorical). Possibly a good word would be Quest?

Another good one on this line might be Glory. Or, relatedly, Triumph.

All good ideas. Thoughts on the above?

[ISNorden]

Thank you, Acolyte...your suggestions are pretty good as well, although Quest feels too much like a mission imposed from above (or below) in my opinion. Triumph, Glory, and Legend all feel more open-ended; they emphasize a memorable future in different ways (the final state vs. the reputation that gets a hero there). All three words allow for the mixed motives that people have for their achievements, too--few of us choose to do what we do for 100% selfish/100% selfless reasons.

On the whole, it makes sense that most Ethereals would care about their followers being remembered for their actions: memory and story are the building blocks of the Marches, whether they form a personal dreamscape or a whole culture's mythology. Even faiths that teach release from the world as an ultimate state, teach their followers about others who have succeeded; Legend records Gautama's journey as well as Lancelot's.