Quick question on geases

[ladyarcana55]

Okay, two quick question on geases.

1) Would someone be able to get a geas on someone if the agreement is over the phone?

For instance, I'm on the phone with a Lilim and I ask for a favor from them. In return I will owe them a favor. Will she get a geas from that or does the agreement have to be face to face?

2) What kind of information can the Lilim get from a geas they hold over someone else?

For instance, using the same example, would she be able to find out any information I did not give her?

I know I am probably just complicating things but I am curious now.

[Rocket Man]

I'm away from my books, but I *think* only a Bright can get a Need over the phone ... demonic Lilim need to be face-to-face.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

Okay, two quick question on geases.

1) Would someone be able to get a geas on someone if the agreement is over the phone?

For instance, I'm on the phone with a Lilim and I ask for a favor from them. In return I will owe them a favor. Will she get a geas from that or does the agreement have to be face to face?

2) What kind of information can the Lilim get from a geas they hold over someone else?

For instance, using the same example, would she be able to find out any information I did not give her?

I know I am probably just complicating things but I am curious now.

1) From what I can tell, the Canon anwer is no. Only a Bright can read Needs over the phone, and you only get a Geas hook if you've read their needs via Resonance. Personally, though I'd rule that if you tell her something you Need, then that would count for a Geas hook as well.

2) She will know if she's asking you too much when she calls in the favor. Other than that, none at all, although a Geas hook will allow her to track you w/ Celestial Affinity, if she knows that Song.

[ladyarcana55]

Originally Posted by DAlillama

Only a Bright can read Needs over the phone...

Only a Bright? Why is that? Is that the special thing they have that sets them apart from other Lilim?

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

Only a Bright? Why is that? Is that the special thing they have that sets them apart from other Lilim?

That's certainly a symptom of it. Bright Lilim can even use their resonance on a photograph if the subject's eyes are visible.

As for what sets them apart, it's the same thing that sets apart any angel from a demon: selflessness. Archangel Beth used this passage from Gurps In Nomine to explain some time ago:

p. 140, Resonance Modifiers Table: "Using a divine, Perception-based resonance upon recorded media, such as a photo, will give information appropriate to when the recording was made. For example, an Elohite could sense the subject's emotional state at the time of the photo, but not his current emotions. (Dark Lilim are too selfish to open themselves to the Symphony enough to use recorded media; Bright Lilim can use their resonance upon a photograph if the target is looking into the camera, simulating 'eye contact.')"

The same rationale seems to apply to a phone call (correct me if I'm wrong, oh high priests of IN!) though it would be more useful since it's real time.

EDIT: AA Beth also included this passage in the same posting:

First... the original core rules! p. 58 of the PDF (p. 57 as the page numbers go), below the Celestial Resonance Check Digit Modifers table: "Using a divine resonance on a mechanical reproduction (such as looking at a photo or talking to someone on the phone) will give information about the subject's state when the reproduction was made."

The only thing I'm not sure about is whether a phone call obviates the need for "virtual eye contact."
Hope this helps!

[Acolyte]

I'm with you, DA. It's always bothered me that Lilim need to invoke their resonance on extremely obvious or even stated Needs. A Lilim walking through the desert and coming upon a delirious man clutching up at her, croaking out the word "water" over and over, should be able to pour him a drink and get a huge Geas, random rolls completely aside.

This was somewhat ameliorated in the IPG, but you have to invoke the rez on a penalty, which also doesn't make sense.

On the subject of Lilim, here's an interesting question.

What is the Redemption rate of Free Lilim compared to Bound Lilim? Naturally it seems Free Lilim would Redeem more often...but then again, they're more heavily policed by Asmodeus. Bound Lilim have a Prince watching over them, and that Prince's Renegade retrieval team, and some benefits of station, so they might be less likely to go--but they're also faced with more annoying restrictions and missions to grate on their "Freedom"-inspired natures. Ho hum. Ho ho ho hum.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

Only a Bright? Why is that? Is that the special thing they have that sets them apart from other Lilim?

Bright Lilim are angels, and angelic resonances work through intermediaries. Arguably, dark lilim are the special case, since they have the only Perception based resonance that doesn't work over recorded/transmitted media, but since the Will-based Kyrio Resonance works over live (but not recorded, for obvious reasons) transmissions (per the APG), it seems to be an Angel/demon thing. Lilim also more limited than angels in that they must meet a victim's eyes, which angels don't, in general (and evidently Brights don't either, since they can use it over the phone). Of course,

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

On the subject of Lilim, here's an interesting question.

What is the Redemption rate of Free Lilim compared to Bound Lilim? Naturally it seems Free Lilim would Redeem more often...but then again, they're more heavily policed by Asmodeus. Bound Lilim have a Prince watching over them, and that Prince's Renegade retrieval team, and some benefits of station, so they might be less likely to go--but they're also faced with more annoying restrictions and missions to grate on their "Freedom"-inspired natures. Ho hum. Ho ho ho hum.

I'm thinking that Free Lilim have a lower Redemption rate than Bound Lilim do. A Free who didn't take Lilith's Rites and Dissonance is the ultimate in free agents - no boss, no ties, nothing to give them grief. They may be free to starve, but they're free; even Creationers (their closest opposite-numbers) have temp-bosses to answer to.

That puts them in the perfect position to become solipsists (each of them is the only being that really matters) - that's the height of selfishness.

Asking a Free to put that aside is a mighty tall order, moreso than for other demons...

[ladyarcana55]

Originally Posted by robkelk

A Free who didn't take Lilith's Rites and Dissonance is the ultimate in free agents - no boss, no ties, nothing to give them grief.

How is that even possible, not to take Lilith's Rites and such? Also, they still have the geases they owe to her, right?

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

How is that even possible, not to take Lilith's Rites and such? Also, they still have the geases they owe to her, right?

Theoretically, a Lilim can pay back all of those Geases without incurring any more, and the Lilth wouldn't have any hold on her either. As far as the Rites and Dissonance, no one is obligated to take them, but anyone is allowed to, if they desire. The Dissonance is the price of the Rites, so you're even with her on that account, but if you don't want the Rites, then you don't have to take them.