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Old 06-13-2018, 02:44 PM   #21
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
That really made me laugh ��������
Me too Chris, I am very surprised Ty did not foresee that I would pick-up on that on *re-direct* LOL!

However, there is actually a lot of truth to it as well; as when I design a labyrinth, I design it as a mosty-natural, logical and supported eco-system, around the existence of the Monsters, Beasts, and Enemies who live there *first* - exclusive of the fact that an adventure party will be tromping through the place; as opposed to a cardboard fun-house which exists solely to accept an adventure party. So, yes, my Monsters, Beasts, and Labyrinth Enemies attack and eat each other, fight for territory in the tunnels, and they have to have food, water, and sleep too; as well as natural, man-made (and defended) entrances, living spaces, and air-vents to the surface, etc. Everything in my underworld environments which has to exist in any shared space is either in a state of symbiosis, or, in an antagonistic state; nothing is sitting around *static* waiting for a group of hapless adventures to come along.

It's a lot of detail to make a labyrinth that *real*, but that's what I personally am really into. And when I "GM", I referee; meaning "what's good for the goose is good for the gander", and *all* rules apply to everyone (every creature) equally. So, if I was using Ty's fatigue rules, yes, I would - as a fair and impartial Referee - wear the Monsters, Beasts, and Labyrinth Enemies down as equally as I would the adventure party.

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 06-13-2018 at 03:07 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 06-13-2018, 03:31 PM   #22
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Ty,... there is no concern about recovery from fatigue, sleep, etc., the topic-at-hand is on: how to easily and accurately time a "per day" to our 5 second combat system time-scale, so that a GM can determine on which turn "a day's worth of time" has passed, and a wizard in the heat of battle could cast again *if* such a rule delineator were adopted into our systems.

JK
Yeah, I made a modification to the question and failed to note it. Basically, my proposed solution avoids the "once a day" notion in favor of a more nuanced approach to recovering ST.

You could, as someone suggested, adapt the notion that the once-a-day event can happen at the same time or later on the following day. You could establish that "turn 1" starts at midnight. So the turn starting at 6 am would be turn 4320. Or you could use hours, minutes and seconds and assume that turn 1 of each minute starts at 00 seconds, turn 2 at 05 seconds and so on.

But this is fantasy. So I'd go with this - you can do the once-a-day thing again on the later of (a) the turn that occurs 6 hours after the once-a-day thing occured, or (b) the first turn of the next dawn. A definition of dawn could be "the instant when the sun clears the horizon".

Ex - I cast a once-a-day spell at 4 pm (turn 11,520 if turn 1 starts at midnight). I can cast it again at 6 am (turn 4320), which is when the sun clears the horizon.

If I cast the once-a-day spell at 5:45 am (turn 3420, which is before dawn), I'll have to wait 6 hrs before I can do it again - 11:45 am (turn 8460).

If I cast the spell at 11:45 am, I'll have to wait until the next dawn at 6 am to cast it again.

Since it's fantasy, assume that the sun somehow helps restore the power.

Oh, the six hour limit prevents the exploit of casting the once-a-day spell at 5:59 am and then again at 6:00 am. You can tweak that as you see fit or eliminate it completely. The idea of adventurers assaulting the dungeon at 4:30 am and anxiously awaiting sunrise to recover is kinda interesting... "For some reason, the sun hasn't risen yet. You look closely at the almanac the dwarf sold you and realize that it's for the year 1,023...740 years ago."

Last edited by tbeard1999; 06-13-2018 at 07:46 PM. Reason: edited to get the math right
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Old 06-13-2018, 03:44 PM   #23
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
It's a lot of detail to make a labyrinth that *real*, but that's what I personally am really into. And when I "GM", I referee; meaning "what's good for the goose is good for the gander", and *all* rules apply to everyone (every creature) equally. So, if I was using Ty's fatigue rules, yes, I would - as a fair and impartial Referee - wear the Monsters, Beasts, and Labyrinth Enemies down as equally as I would the adventure party.
JK
Bah. If you want fair, go here https://bigtex.com/ .

A maze of expensive tunnels and rooms filled with fantastic monsters, nefarious traps and obscene amounts of treasure can hardly be expected to operate by natural laws. Heck, my dungeons even have vending machines for potions, their fronts emblazoned with these mysterious, fiery eldritch runes - TOM'S. And these smaller, even more sinister runes - SNACKS.

http://static.sites.yp.com/var/m_5/5...eet_Devine.jpg

Kidding aside, my campaign worlds tend to be logical and detailed. As a long time wargamer, I can typically tell you how each Imperial Legion is equipped and organized, etc., and diagram the epic battles that shaped the realm. Of course no one cares.

But I consider dungeons to be magical constructs that result from a "whirlpool" of chaos in a particular area. No one knows if they're teleported from somewhere else or if they're created on the spot. Some are probably summoned and some are probably djinned up on the spot.

Wizards do theorize that chaos is like a fast flowing river. When large whirlpools form, a dungeon or other magical structure usually appears. When the whirlpools dissipate, the dungeons sometimes remain (but not always). Those dungeons would then be subject to normal laws of nature and ultimately turn into the "logical" dungeons like you create or like Tollenkar's Lair.

More scientifically minded individuals theorize that the world is occasionally struck by meteors that emanate chaos. This chaos "radiation" twists and distorts matter around it. Eventually, the amount of chaos decreases.

That explanation certainly seems reasonable in the case of the Crater of the Doomstar, which contains the Dreaded Dungeon of Dreaded Doom ("Abandon all hope, ye who enter" helpfully engraved in its front door in Common, Dwarvish and English and "Help Wanted, Short Hours, High Pay. Inquire Within” engraved in Orcish) that lies about a weeks ride east of Port Loren

Other dungeons result from long-buried meteors, according to the theories.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 06-13-2018 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 06-13-2018, 03:48 PM   #24
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Yeah, I made a modification to the question and failed to note it. Basically, my proposed solution avoids the "once a day" notion in favor of a more nuanced approach to recovering ST.
Ty,... As I answered Skarg, how does any of that inform on which combat-turn - the next day - the wizard is able and ready to cast again; or, in the case of the Trail-twister spell, inform on which combat-turn - the next day - the spell turns-off?

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
I consider dungeons to be magical constructs that result from a "whirlpool" of chaos in a particular area. No one knows if they're teleported from somewhere else or if they're created on the spot. Some are probably summoned and some are probably djinned up on the spot
And, as I say in these, and so many other cases: "Do what you like."

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 06-14-2018 at 01:47 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 06-13-2018, 06:43 PM   #25
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Ty,... As I answered Skarg, how does any of that inform on which combat-turn - the next day - the wizard is able and ready to cast again; or, in the case of the Trailtwister spell, inform on which combat-turn - the next day - the spell turns-off?
I think I answered those questions later in the post.

Basically, I propose the later of (a) the first turn of the next dawn (I.e. when the sun clears the horizon) or (b) the first turn that occurs six hours after the once-per-day event occurs.

(A) occurs on turn 4320, if turn 1 begins at midnight and if dawn happens at 6am. (B) occurs 4320 turns after the the once-per-day event occurs.

If the wizard casts the “once a day” spell at exactly 10 am (turn 7200), he can cast it again on the next turn 4320 (which starts at 6 am the next morning). If he casts it at exactly 4 am (turn 2880), he can cast it again on turn 7200 (i.e., 10 am).

Last edited by tbeard1999; 06-13-2018 at 07:42 PM. Reason: edited to get the math right
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Old 06-13-2018, 07:35 PM   #26
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
I think I answered those questions later in the post. Basically, I propose the later of (a) the first turn of the next dawn (I.e. when the sun clears the horizon) or (b) the first turn that occurs six hours after the once-per-day event occurs. (A) occurs on turn 21,600, if turn 1 begins at midnight and if dawn happens at 6am. (B) occurs 21,600 turns after the the once-per-day event occurs. If the wizard casts the “once a day” spell at exactly 10 am (turn 36,000), he can cast it again on the next turn 21,600 (which starts at 6 am the next morning). If he casts it at exactly 4 am (turn 14,400), he can cast it again on turn 36,000 (i.e., 10 am).
Ty,... Barring the fact that there only 17,280 of these "per day" 5-Second Combat Turns between a 24 hour period from spell cast to spell cast... do you feel your proposed methods (A) meets the qualifier of *accurate*; or (B) meets the qualifier of *easy*; as put forth in the OP?

JK
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Old 06-13-2018, 07:40 PM   #27
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Ty,... Barring the fact that there only 17,280 of these "per day" 5-Second Combat Turns between a 24 hour period from spell cast to spell cast... do you feel your proposed methods (A) meets the qualifier of *accurate*; or (B) meets the qualifier of *easy*; as put forth in the OP?

JK
Well, that’ll teach me to do math in my head. I was thinking 3600 turns in an hour, when it should have been 720 per hour. So turn 4320 starts at 6 am, if turn 1 starts at midnight.

Accurate, yes. Easy...of course not. But I didn’t ask the question :) If you’re gonna insist on that degree of precision (I.e., which exact turn), then the numbers are gonna unavoidably get inconveniently large.
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Old 06-13-2018, 07:50 PM   #28
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
...If you’re gonna insist on that degree of precision (I.e., which exact turn), then the numbers are gonna unavoidably get inconveniently large.
Ty,... our entire system is founded on specificity with values and numbers, and exactly when things happen in the game. That was part of the original impetus of motivation in creating Melee - back when all weapons in D&D did 1d6 damage, and anyone could attack anyone else; unless the DM specifically declared otherwise, etc.

I can see no good reason worthy of violating that standard 41 years later; can you?

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 06-15-2018 at 05:07 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 06-13-2018, 07:58 PM   #29
Dave Crowell
 
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

To me "once per day" means "once every 24 hours". Note the time when the ability or spell is used and in 24 hours it can be used again. The time can be noted to the fraction of a second if that degree of precision is required.

Describe it as requiring a 24 interval to elapse instead of saying "once per day" if you prefer.
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Old 06-13-2018, 08:01 PM   #30
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
As we have no established incremental time-keeping system beyond the 5 second combat turn - of which there are 17,280 of these "per day".
We do have “seconds” (i.e., 1/5 of a turn), “minutes” (I.e., 12 turns) “hours” (i.e. 720 turns) and “days” (17,289 turns), don’t we?

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The Fantasy Trip uses a unique Jacksonian magic system, which is engineered around a "Per Usum" platform; whereas, other game systems use a Vancian magic system which is engineered around a "Per Diem" platform.
TFT’s magic system looks to me a lot like the Tunnels and Trolls magic system - sans silly names. And much like the Runequest magic system, sans runes. So I don’t think it’s all that unique. It is probably the most refined, at least when it comes to combat magic, though, even through today. (I haven’t played GURPs in decades so I can’t opine about it).

In fact, outside of D&D and its clones, I can’t think of any game that uses a Vancian magic system (other than, of course, the Dying Earth RPG). There must be some; I just can’t recall any.
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