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Old 06-13-2018, 11:51 AM   #11
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
My dungeons were so tough that no one EVER had the bright idea to SLEEP in one. (That's true of my AD&D campaigns as well). And I can assure you that they would have regretted the attempt. So, the "sleep in the dungeon to recover" strategy never was a factor in my campaigns...Of course, in 38 years of roleplaying, I've never needed such a system.
And as "no one ever slept" in your labyrinths, did you equally apply your sleep-deprivation rules to the Monsters, Beasts, and Labyrinth Enemies as well?

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
I think that continuing to sneer at role-playing styles is infantile, but hey, do what you like. I'd much rather talk about TFT, frankly.
No one here is sneering JLV. What I am indicating with those good wishes of: "But hey, do what you like", is that everyone should ultimately play the way they wish in the home campaign; and that I am not looking to argue with those who either do not see the need for an accurate timing system, or have some other way they do it. You are applying intention where none is present my dear friend; as I have no stake, nor concern, in how others play at home.

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 06-13-2018 at 02:00 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 06-13-2018, 11:58 AM   #12
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
And as "no one slept" in your labyrinths, did you equally apply your sleep-deprivation rules to the Monsters, Beasts, and Labyrinth Enemies as well?

JK
Never thought about it. I also didn't account for food supplies, oxygen deprivation, etc. Besides...my monsters probably don't sleep. Or eat (other than adventurers, which explains why they're usually so hangry). :D

I'm not saying that they couldn't sleep in my dungeons. Only that it would have been VERY foolish for them to do so. And they intuited that.

Oh and I forgot that my dungeon doors usually opened OUTWARD into the corridor, which made kicking the door down MUCH harder and and spiking it from the inside impossible. It also made it possible to be "spiked in" from the outside. (This feature was used by players occasionally; an unarmed hobbit once slammed a door into a skeleton. I rewarded such panache by having the skeleton shatter.) EDIT and while players griped about that, they spiked their share of doors shut so the monster couldn’t get out...

Last edited by tbeard1999; 06-13-2018 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:09 PM   #13
JLV
 
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
No one here is sneering JLV. What I am indicating with those good wishes of: "But hey, do what you want", is that everyone should ultimately play the way they wish in the home campaign; and that I am not looking to argue with those who either do not see the need for an accurate timing system, or have some other way they do it. You are applying intention where none is present my dear friend; as I have no stake, nor concern, in how others play at home.

JK
That wasn't directed at you, Jim. Not even slightly.
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:14 PM   #14
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

Here's a very simple mechanic that I think would address your concerns:

It takes 1 hour of "good sleep" to recover 1 point of fatigue (i.e., ST that was expended casting spells or otherwise lost due to fatigue). 8 hours of good sleep in a 9 hour period will allow the character to recover all fatigue.

Good sleep is defined as "uninterrupted sleep in a reasonably comfortable and secure environment." Examples would be sleep in an inn, or in a campsite that is guarded by your comrades, or even a jail (assuming that you trust whomever you share the cell with).

Sleeping in a dungeon would NOT usually qualify, as you're surrounded by hordes of foul monsters and all. Plus, dungeon plumbing is notoriously loud. And monsters ALL snore. Loudly.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 06-13-2018 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:22 PM   #15
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
That wasn't directed at you, Jim. Not even slightly.
Then why quote me?

Andrew Hackard could possibly misconstrue that as some sort of an indicator of a complaint you are making about me on the forum.

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Here's a very simple mechanic that I think would address your concerns...
Ty,... there is no concern about recovery from fatigue, sleep, etc., the topic-at-hand is on: how to easily and accurately time a "per day" to our 5 second combat system time-scale, so that a GM can determine on which turn "a day's worth of time" has passed, and a wizard in the heat of battle could cast again *if* such a rule delineator were adopted into our systems.

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 06-13-2018 at 12:35 PM. Reason: Combine posts
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:15 PM   #16
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

I don't like Vancian magic and would prefer to avoid "once per day" spell use limits unless they are the best thing that has been thought of to solve a particular problem.

I agree that things in TFT should be at least theoretically concrete and measurable, preferably without too much work.

However I have fairly frequently found myself tracking time in detail across several days, both inside an underground setting, and in the wilderness, and in towns, and at sea, and while flying long distances over the world. It can either be because the PC's are attempting some time-sensitive maneuver, or day/night cycles and weather changes are significant, or because they are chasing/tracking, or being chased/tracked, or there are several important (PC or NPC) groups moving around and doing things close enough in time/space that where people are and what they're doing at what time determines what happens in a major may.

Unless people are in combat/adventure mode for hours, though (which doesn't happen even if you play out TFT battles with 100+ figures on each side, which I've also done), there will always be, or unless the party is constantly moving(*), there are almost always periods where you wouldn't have a fully rational basis for exactly how much time passes, because people will take breaks, pee, stop to talk or look around or decide which way to go next, or whatever, and assigning a rigid mechanical amount of time to those can introduce a gamey error of being more rigid/precise than makes sense.

(* When the party is constantly moving at a constant rate and direction, then that can provide a way to tell how much time has passed related directly to where they are.)

(edit: Oh, and another issue that I have run into with per day things, is at which point do characters know the time limit has cycled or not.)

i.e. I think there is a solution that is not entirely arbitrary GM discretion, but can still give you a concrete measure of what time it is, by having the GM assess that some random range of time is spent doing normal human things, and choosing a random range, rolling, and abiding by that roll.

However in many cases, I also don't really object to a trusted GM making a ruling without dice about how much time has passed (as long as I don't notice any reason to doubt their ruling).

I also would say that there ARE established TFT time periods other than the 5-second combat turn. e.g.:

* ITL physicker healing (5 minutes)
* ITL burning down a door (10 minutes)
* ITL tunneling (per hour)
* ITL travel (distance and other things per day)
* ITL jobs (per week)
* aging (years)
* healing wounds (1 / 2 days)
* fatigue recovery (1 / 15 minutes)
* Dark Vision spell (lasts 1 hour)
* Trailtwister spell (lasts 1 DAY)
* Astral Projection (lasts 1 hour)
* Trance (takes 1 hour)
* Little Death (subject loses 1 ST per day)
* Zombie rot rate (1 / day)
* Revival (must be cast within 1 hour of death)
* various magical activities (research, enchanting, alchemy, chemistry, potion effects, etc involve days and weeks

As for the healing spell itself, I think since healing already takes place on a scale of days, that having it castable either on a fresh unhealed wound, or once per day per healed wound, could work well enough. I like the effect that if there is a limit per caster or per victim or per wound, rather than unlimited use per fatigue, then there is no unlimited healing via people with the Aid spell.

An even simpler system that involves no time tracking would be that it can only be used on unhealed wounds... I think that's more like what I'd want to use. Then you can beat a Master Physicker by casting it with 12+ energy, and Aid spells could be used to help, but it wouldn't create so much of a huge rest-tracking and apprentice-herding game, and unless you had a whole lot of people with Aid, some people would still end up needing to rest to heal.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:16 PM   #17
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

Skarg, of the various time-durations you have listed, not one, which is not minutes or hours, is an alternate *time-keeping-system* to our 5-Second Turn on the tactical-level. So I am unsure as to how the term: Other Time Periods, came into the discussion.

As far as the Trail-twister spell is concerned, I would simply ask: "On which combat turn - the next day - does that spell expire on?"

JK

PS - that is a great list by the way!

Last edited by Jim Kane; 06-14-2018 at 02:16 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:23 PM   #18
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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As far as the Trailtwister spell is concerned, I would simply ask: [I]"On which combat turn - the next day - does that spell expire on?"
This seems to be complaining for the sake of complaining; in the past forty years of gaming, I can think of literally zero times when I would have needed to answer that, and if for some reason I did need to answer it, it would not be hard to do so.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:24 PM   #19
JLV
 
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Then why quote me?

Andrew Hackard could possibly misconstrue that as some sort of an indicator of a complaint you are making about me on the forum.
Because your turn of phrase was just perfect for what I used it for.

Nope, my comment was NOT directed at Jim Kane. No complaints here, whatsoever, about him.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:31 PM   #20
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
And as "no one ever slept" in your labyrinths, did you equally apply your sleep-deprivation rules to the Monsters, Beasts, and Labyrinth Enemies as well?

JK
That really made me laugh 😂😂😂😂
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