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Old 06-12-2018, 08:49 PM   #41
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Experience Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
Aren't there rules that already double the cost of spells for non-Wizards? E.g., you have to declare yourself a Wizard or Warrior going in, and if you're a Warrior, Spells cost twice as much to learn, while if you're a Wizard, Talents cost more to learn? I mean, I realize that the rule was predicated on "IQ slots" as the controlling factor and all, but wouldn't that be likely to translate into higher XP costs under the new system?

Of course, we don't know that, because Steve didn't include it in our brief glimpse of the new rules, but it would certainly seem logical...
Yes, in ITL it explains that non-wizards pay three points per spell rather than one, and wizards pay double for talents other than languages and literacy.

And actually Steve did write in his new EP system here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson
As when the character was created, spells cost triple for a non-wizard, and talents cost double for a wizard.
I guess I read in an assumption that that means a spell could cost a hero 300 EP to learn after creation, but that seems reasonable since effectively it is a (3) talent.

But that's not what I was talking about. My conjecture is that with this new system with no IQ limits, and increasing and capped attribute expansion, that it will be more tempting than in original TFT for experienced fighters to learn spells (since in old TFT there was a pretty hard limit at 3 memory points because a fighter doesn't want to put too many points in IQ, and there are nice non-spell talents for them to get). If it's just 300 EP to get a spell, but it's going to be 1500 EP to get the next attribute increase, or you've reached 40 attributes, and if there aren't more nifty talents to get, I think experienced fighters may start to favor getting spells... if they forgo that 1500 +1 DX for a while, they could get 5 spells for that, which no original-TFT fighter would do because it'd take 15 memory points!

(So I was thinking it might be good if higher-IQ spells cost even more EP, which would also be tripled for non-wizards, slowing down what I'm concerned may be a non-wizard spell-bloat phenomenon that might be annoying. Certainly if that Healing spell doesn't get nerfed, I forsee every hero wanting to get Aid so they can give the healing wizard power to heal them with...)

Last edited by Skarg; 06-12-2018 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:14 PM   #42
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Experience Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
... But that's not what I was talking about. My conjecture is that with this new system with no IQ limits, and increasing and capped attribute expansion, that it will be more tempting than in original TFT for experienced fighters to learn spells (since in old TFT there was a pretty hard limit at 3 memory points because a fighter doesn't want to put too many points in IQ, and there are nice non-spell talents for them to get). If it's just 300 EP to get a spell, but it's going to be 1500 EP to get the next attribute increase, or you've reached 40 attributes, and if there aren't more nifty talents to get, I think experienced fighters may start to favor getting spells... if they forgo that 1500 +1 DX for a while, they could get 5 spells for that, which no original-TFT fighter would do because it'd take 15 memory points!

(So I was thinking it might be good if higher-IQ spells cost even more EP, which would also be tripled for non-wizards, slowing down what I'm concerned may be a non-wizard spell-bloat phenomenon that might be annoying. Certainly if that Healing spell doesn't get nerfed, I forsee every hero wanting to get Aid so they can give the healing wizard power to heal them with...)
Hi Everyone, Skarg.
In the new TFT why would anyone take a fighter? Heroes pay 3:1 for spells, and Wizards pay 2:1 for talents (except a lot of useful talents are 1:1).

I was hoping that attribute bloat would be addressed to make TFT work better with the elder game. But the elder game (at least as far as gaining attributes has been eliminated), so advanced characters will just buy more and more languages, talents and spells.

Given that wizards get a huge reduction in experience costs buying talents and spells, compared with heroes, I think that heroes will be marginalized.

Your idea of tougher spells costing more experience I like. Someone else previously suggested that the experience cost to learn a spell is based on the IQ of the spell.

(Say: IQ of spell x 25 experience points.)

I like this idea, tho it does not help the 'wizards dominate heroes' problem.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:40 PM   #43
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Experience Points

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
You may use experience points to buy a total of 8 additional attribute points. These may all go into one stat, or they can be divided up. After the eighth additional attribute point (which gets humans to a total of 40), attributes may only be increased by magic, such as a Wish.
I misread this on the first time through. I'm not sure what it means for character generation. Does it mean that everyone gets their starting IQ in free talents initially?

I think it's very odd to have one system for 0 to 32 attributes and another for 32 to 40 attribute points and then a third one for 40+ attributes. What is the purpose of this cut and change? Why not one system all the way through?

The idea that only wishes can allow progress after 40 attributes ... I assume most GMs will handle this by making obtaining a wish the reward of the adventure, and then the players can argue about which of them gets it, so that each player gets a wish occasionally. Or the GM will house rule away the 40 point cap.

But the PCs will still be getting experience points, so they'll still be buying talents ... and by the time they would have reached 44 or 48 attribute points, they'll be liberally festooned with talents because why not. And then talents cease to be a defining characteristic of characters.

I think this leads to some very peculiar consequences. It's the one aspect where I don't understand why Steve wants to do this.

A single system approach:
  • Everyone starts with ST 8, DX 8, IQ 8 and some XPs. The number of XPs might be higher or lower according to what sort of campaign it is. Maybe 3,500 would be comparable with standard rules?
  • Everyone buys talents and attributes as they see fit.
  • Nonhumans have an actual attribute that depends on the attribute calculated here by some formula or other e.g. "for a dwarf add two to strength".
  • No cap.
What would be the consequences of this?
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:14 AM   #44
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Experience Points

Shouldn't the staff stat cost the same EP to advance as any other stat?
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:00 AM   #45
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Experience Points

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
Shouldn't the staff stat cost the same EP to advance as any other stat?
I think it should increase in a similar way, but if you just use the same table literally, the first 8 points will only cost 100 each.
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:22 AM   #46
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Experience Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
In the new TFT why would anyone take a fighter? Heroes pay 3:1 for spells, and Wizards pay 2:1 for talents
If you're planning to buy lots and lots of talents then that's some reason. But I agree the need is lessened. It's more practical to cross-purchase now, so blended characters will become more common and blended characters are usually better as wizards. Blending is likely to happen when the characters get experienced, so anyone who wanted it would have to go through a period where it might not be very efficient.

Quote:
IQ of spell x 25 experience points.
Two issues:
  1. If you do this for spells then you should do it for talents as well. It's not a huge impact but it's probably desirable.
  2. Why 25? You get something comparable with standard TFT by using 10.
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:42 AM   #47
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Experience Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
I think it should increase in a similar way, but if you just use the same table literally, the first 8 points will only cost 100 each.
Well, SJ said ALL the points cost 100 each...
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:43 AM   #48
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Experience Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
In the new TFT why would anyone take a fighter? Heroes pay 3:1 for spells, and Wizards pay 2:1 for talents (except a lot of useful talents are 1:1).
Well, because initial stat choice now commits you to what your character's going to be like, and the low-experience stage of the game depends on your initial design, and if either you die or the GM is stingy enough with his EP rewards, you won't ever get to the long end game.

Even if you do survive and get piles of EP so you reach 40 points, there's still a choice of being a fighter or a wizard to consider. Fighters are needed because they don't exhaust themselves when fighting, for one thing, though I guess you could all try to be wizards and hire/befriend fighters to join you.

The starting character designs will probably be about like they were in original TFT. Fighters usually starting with IQ 8-9 to be competitive fighters with ST & DX. So if I follow you, you're saying I might be wise to be a wizard even if I want to fight, so say I'm a survivable fighter-style character who's actually a wizard:

ST 11
DX 12
IQ 9
Sword (2x2) Shield (1x2) Literacy (1) Horsemanship (1x2)

That works to begin with. I could either put my advancement points into actually being a wizard, and eventually get up to IQ 17 at most, which isn't bad. Or I could actually mainly be a fighter... my talents would cost double EP, but how many am I actually going to need? Depends on whether any cool new ones are being added, but let's just make a cool fighter from here assuming only ITL talents, so say:

ST 14
DX 17
IQ 9
So what ITL talents would I really like at this point? Let's see, probably crossbow (1x2), missile weapons (3x2), and warrior (2x2). That's only 600 "penalty" EP. Though there are a bunch of other talents there too that would be useful, easily another 600 "penalty" EP. Oh, well the problem with this example I chose was I stuck to IQ 9 to be an ace fighter. Oh well, I'll stick with it. So what spells would I want? If they're like candy at 100 EP each, probably Staff (the new free ST battery), Blur, Drop Weapon, Image, Detect Magic, Clumsiness, Aid, Summon Wolf, Fire, and Dark Vision. 10, for 1000 EP.

And, I notice I'm also nearly out of things I want to buy with EP at IQ 9, for 3400 total EP.

So let's see, if I were a hero with the same attributes, I'd get to start with 4 more talents. Then to get the rest would be 800 for talents, and if I got all those 10 spells at 300 each, would be a total of 3800 EP. Not a lot different, and again we see a tradeoff where I take longer to reach my "final form" (LOL) but I got to start out with more talents, which seems fine to me.

If spells cost 25 x IQ-level, then it would cost...
Wizard: 2400 + 5 x 25 x 8 + 5 x 25 x 9 = 4525
Hero: 2000 + (5 x 25 x 8 + 5 x 25 x 9) x 3 = 8375

So it looks like the higher IQ-based costs would slow down hero-learning of spells... though this guy will still eventually do it given enough GM EP awards, because there's nothing else for him to do with EP. But it also makes even this guy with only 10 spells he'd like better off (in the end-game, anyway) as a wizard than a fighter, even though really he's a fighter design. The incentive to be a fighter is still there but is really mainly in terms of learning talents in the early game.

I'm sure it's rather different and more work to compute for higher-IQ characters. But I think that in the long run, the more IQ, the more clearly you'll want to be a wizard, as there are tons of spells to want, and as you pointed out, the exchange rate is better overall as a wizard. And if higher-IQ spells cost more EP to learn, that just increases the savings in the long run to learn them.

I think I/we need to test and stew on this further.
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:54 AM   #49
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Experience Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
A rate of 25 to 100 experience points per player per session will be appropriate for most campaigns, but this is a GM decision. That rate will allow most characters to improve themselves after every session or so at the beginning of the campaign.
Not sure what you mean by "session or so", do you mean "one or two sessions on the average"? Because if the supply of XPs is (25 to 100) x (1 to 2) then progress is going to be modest unless it's limited to talents: it could typically take ten sessions to earn an attribute point, even for a starting character.

Quote:
Later, as the campaign itself becomes an important reward, the character advancement should slow down.
I approve of the sentiment but for these rules it doesn't, at least not much. A 32-point character trying to buy talents does so at exactly the same rate as a 35- or indeed 39-point character. A 32-point character buying attributes is probably buying 12s or 13s on the average, at say 550 XPs apiece. Which becomes 13s to 14s or if he's lucky 15s for a 35-point character, at about 700 XP apiece. The slowing is, well, very slow.

I think you need a way to make it faster to progress, maybe for all characters but definitely for starting characters. And I think the previous system, which determined price based on total number of attributes rather than the specific attribute being raised, did that better.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:49 AM   #50
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Wizards are just better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Well, because initial stat choice now commits you to what your character's going to be like, and the low-experience stage of the game depends on your initial design, and if either you die or the GM is stingy enough with his EP rewards, you won't ever get to the long end game. ...
Hi everyone, Skarg.
If you say, "I'm going to be a fighter, and only do fighter things!" then sure, you get more starting talents by starting with a hero class character.

But I know my players, and most of them will want to takes a few spells eventually. Given that they are going to be picking up spells, why not start as a wizard class?

There are not many ways to make yourself harder to hit in TFT - wouldn't it be great to have the Blur spell for tough fights? Of course. Blur is a super low IQ spell, most fighters who want some decent talents will have an IQ 9.

You want to become a healer... well IQ 12 gives you the Fireball spell. If you are in deep kimchee being able to do 6d-6 damage to some charging whatsit is a really cool option to have handy. AND what healer does not want to take that hugely powerful healing spell?

Steve Jackson has completely changed TFT experience and character development to allow it to work in the elder game, with advanced characters. Other than a bit of attribute development, most of the experience will go to buying talents and spells. Heroes buy spells at 3:1, Wizards buy talents at 2:1 or less.

Note that high level wizards are just more powerful than high level fighters. I brought this up, and Steve Jackson wrote that fighters could improve by buying magic.

Well true. I would prefer that my character is awesome because he is awesome, not because he has a load of magic items. But OK. The explicit plan is that advanced fighters, to develop, must buy magic.

But advanced wizards can buy magic items as well.

And if you are going to be buying some spells anyway, and advanced wizards are just better than advanced heroes, I can see a LOT more wizard characters being written up under these rules than in the old TFT.

Warm regards, Rick.
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