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Old 05-30-2018, 01:05 AM   #41
JLV
 
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Far northern California
Default Re: HEAL spell?

Okay, I'm VERY late to this party apparently, but here's my thoughts on the whole thing:

Healing Spell? Heck yeah!

Steve hits it pretty close right off the bat at IQ 14 and a 3:1 ratio for ST expended to HITS healed.

After reading through all of this, I want to say that:

1) I'm being persuaded that 4:1 ratio might be better for ST expended to HITS healed;

2) I REALLY like Brother Bill's suggestion of it converting an actual HIT to a point of exhaustion instead -- that seems highly appropriate, and still requires the healed person to spend some time getting over the ... for lack of a better word ... "shock" of taking a HIT and then having it healed.

3) I don't remember who mentioned it first (Kirk or Skarg, probably) but applying the "Rule of Five" (in that a single Wizard can't HEAL more than five HITS per day, and a single figure can't HAVE more than five HITS healed in a single day) would seem an entirely logical way of further limiting this so that you don't turn a Wizard into a walking hospital for the unwary...

Ideally, I want a healing spell to prevent someone from dying right there on the spot -- not so that the party can become an unrelenting threshing machine of incalculable power.
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Old 05-30-2018, 03:05 AM   #42
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
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Default Re: HEAL spell? --> spells that cost damage not fST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Hi Rick, thanks I do too; but moreover, would rather like to see your take on SJ's Heal Spell - possible you could share that?

Thanks.

JK
Hi everyone, Jim.
This was posted before here:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...&postcount=310

Also you can follow the discussion about it for awhile in that thread. EDIT: No you can't. I can link to the post, but it is in isolation. I can't see how to link to the middle of the threat.

These spells were designed to preserve the drama and danger of combat, but fast forward thru the dull, 'stopping the adventure to heal up', portion of TFT.

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 05-30-2018 at 03:15 AM. Reason: Had trouble getting the link to work.
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Old 05-30-2018, 03:49 AM   #43
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: HEAL spell?

I think the game needs a healing spell and preference would be for this to come via Clerical magic of some sort. However, I'd also be up for a Wizard Spell but with a twist; what if the spell healed variable damage, like the reverse of Magic Fist, healing 1d-2 per point spent. This would provide a level of uncertainty and be a bit more of a "risk v reward."
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Old 05-30-2018, 04:21 AM   #44
Jim Kane
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
...a Wizard Spell but with a twist; what if the spell healed variable damage, like the reverse of Magic Fist, healing 1d-2 per point spent. This would provide a level of uncertainty and be a bit more of a "risk v reward."
Sounds fun Chris. I can also see both a stingier version as: 1ST=1d-4, 2ST=1d-3, 3ST=1d-2... or, a more expensive version starting at: 4ST=1d-2, 5ST=1d-1, 6ST=1d... puts some of that *casino* action that damage rolls have into healing. Nice. Wouldn't mind seeing you work up the details.

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 05-30-2018 at 04:56 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 05-30-2018, 05:08 AM   #45
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: HEAL spell?

The problem with giving Wizards a healing spell is that they'll just become the party medic if they choose the spell. Still, they don't have to choose it.😊😊
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Old 05-30-2018, 05:19 AM   #46
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
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Default Healing in the Dungeon Crawl

As noted, I think that the main purpose of healing spells should be to enable the classic dungeon crawl. Otherwise, I think that the existing physicker/master physicker talents (or magical equivalents) are more than adequate. (I would, however, allow some version of Rick's magical healing that speeds up recovery between adventures).

A look at the iconic dungeon crawling RPG, AD&D, will show why I designed the spells the way I did.

I always assumed that starting TFT characters were about the equivalent of 2nd level AD&D characters, so that's the basis of this comparison.*

In the examples below, assume that the AD&D fighter is 2nd level and has 11 hp; the starting TFT fighter has ST 11-12; the AD&D cleric has 4 1st level spells (Wisdom 14+); and that the TFT wizard has ST 10, DX10.

The basic AD&D healing spell, Cure Light Wounds, heals 4.5 hit points on average. If the cleric takes 4 cure light wounds spells, he can cure 18 hp of damage. That's 1.6 times the hit points of an average AD&D 2nd level fighter or TFT starting fighter.

To give a TFT wizard roughly the same healing ability as the cleric, you have to take into account the ST cost of the spell and the fact that a TFT wizard has a 50% chance of casting the spell successfully while the cleric's spells are always successful.

To match Cure Light Wounds, a TFT healing spell should cost 1 ST and heal 3.6 ST. The TFT wizard will use 10 ST to successfully cast 5 spells and fail at casting 5 spells. Those 5 successful spells will heal 18 pts of ST.

By comparison, my cinematic healing spells only heal 2 points of damage per ST used casting, so they are only about half as powerful as Cure Light Wounds.

As noted, I don't think that Steve's healing spell -- 3 ST expended to heal 1 point of damage -- is gonna be very useful. Most of the time, I think a party would almost always be better off firing a 3d lightning spell at an opponent. I'd usually rather do 10 points of damage to the enemy than heal 1 ST on a friend.

*Note: I calibrated this many years ago by comparing combat performance between AD&D and TFT fighters. A 2nd level AD&D fighter, with broadsword, scale and small shield will last about 7 rounds against an identical foe; a ST11, DX 13(10) TFT fighter with broadsword, chain and small shield will last about 7.3 turns against an armored foe. Based on these kind of matchups, I estimate that 2 TFT points very roughly work out to 1 AD&D level.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 05-30-2018 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 05-30-2018, 05:50 AM   #47
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: HEAL spell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
The problem with giving Wizards a healing spell is that they'll just become the party medic if they choose the spell. Still, they don't have to choose it.😊😊
Agreed.

One way to simulate the healing power of AD&D clerics would be to use the healing spells I suggested, but allow figures with first aid/physicker/master physicker to learn the healing spells at 1 IQ point cost and to ignore the DX adjustment for heroes using these spells.

First Aid is a new IQ 10 talent:

FIRST AID (1). Healer's ability. Works like Physicker talent, but heals 1 point of damage and requires a first aid kit. If you have First Aid, you can take Physicker for 1 IQ point.


A figure with First Aid can learn Minor Healing for 1 IQ point. A physicker can learn Major Healing for 1 point, and a master physicker can learn Critical Healing for 1 point.

This allows for figures with some fighting ability and some healing ability. Here are the spells again (IQ requirements reduced):

IQ 10: Minor Healing (T) Heals 2 ST of physical damage. 1 ST.

IQ 11: Major Healing (T) Heals 4 ST of physical damage. Figures who know this spell also know Minor Healing. 2 ST.

IQ 14: Critical Healing (T) Heals 6 ST of physical damage. Figures who know this spell also know Minor Healing and Major Healing. 3 ST.


Sample 32 point TFT pseudo cleric - ST11, DX12(10), IQ9, leather, shield, mace. Literacy (1), Ax/Mace (2), Shield (1), First Aid (1), Minor Healing (1), Priest (2), 1 talent point reserved.

Sample 34 point TFT pseudo cleric - ST11, DX12(10), IQ11, leather, shield, mace. Literacy (1), Ax/Mace (2), Shield (1), Physicker (2), Major Healing (1), Priest (2), 2 other talent points.

Sample 37 point TFT pseudo cleric - ST11, DX12(10), IQ14, leather, shield, mace. Literacy (1), Ax/Mace (2), Shield (1), Physicker (2), Master Physicker (3), Critical Healing (1), Priest (2), Theologian (2).

Sample 40 point TFT pseudo cleric - ST11, DX14(11), IQ14, chain, shield, mace. Ax/Mace (2), Shield (1), Physicker (2), Master Physicker (3) Major Healing (1), Priest (2), 3 other talent points.
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Old 05-30-2018, 06:23 AM   #48
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

I've been thinking about what we want from a healing rule and I'm thinking that, contrary to what some have said, what we want is something that lets a party be a never-stopping whirling circular saw of death.

There's a fundamental problem with roleplaying combat: to be exciting the players have to feel they might lose, so the fight has to be close. But if any player characters get killed something precious is destroyed, and if there's no healing even serious casualties is a problem. Making injuries easy to recover doesn't eliminate the problem but it reduces it.

So bring on the easy, effective healing spells. In fact, bring the IQ requirement down. Let everyone have them.
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Old 05-30-2018, 06:55 AM   #49
Kirk
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Default Re: HEAL spell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
I've been thinking about what we want from a healing rule and I'm thinking that, contrary to what some have said, what we want is something that lets a party be a never-stopping whirling circular saw of death.

There's a fundamental problem with roleplaying combat: to be exciting the players have to feel they might lose, so the fight has to be close. But if any player characters get killed something precious is destroyed, and if there's no healing even serious casualties is a problem. Making injuries easy to recover doesn't eliminate the problem but it reduces it.

So bring on the easy, effective healing spells. In fact, bring the IQ requirement down. Let everyone have them.
If this isn't sarcasm, then I disagree somewhat. The fear of death and its avoidance is what creates the tension. If as a Player I know that unless I muck up pretty badly my character will survive to continue on to old age, the tension is much less. It also leads to characters that push TFTs bell curve into the dysfunctional range.

TFT works well now, dinking with is to take a risk. I don't want clerics or wizards whose value becomes one of "OK, we heal the party let's move on to the next annoying but not deadly interaction, then I need to go home".

To give value to negotiation and the skills that go with it, whether mimic, business sense, or other non-combative skills, i.e. let's solve this problem without violence, drawing a sword needs to be a serious act worthy of contemplation, or the game is a one-trick pony of bash and crash, take the treasure, yawn...

I don't want to play D&D when I am in Cidri.
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:16 AM   #50
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: HEAL spell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
I've been thinking about what we want from a healing rule and I'm thinking that, contrary to what some have said, what we want is something that lets a party be a never-stopping whirling circular saw of death.
If you include me in that category, you have not read my posts very carefully.

Quote:
There's a fundamental problem with roleplaying combat: to be exciting the players have to feel they might lose, so the fight has to be close. But if any player characters get killed something precious is destroyed, and if there's no healing even serious casualties is a problem. Making injuries easy to recover doesn't eliminate the problem but it reduces it.

So bring on the easy, effective healing spells. In fact, bring the IQ requirement down. Let everyone have them.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic.

In any case, the reality is that TFT combats are extremely deadly - understandable, since Melee was an arena combat game. I don't object to that per se. The Melee tactical combat system would last way too long if you radically increased the number of hit points or allowed easy healing during combat.

But consider a typical starting fighter with ST12, DX12(10), broadsword, leather, small shield. If his foes have DX10 and broadswords, he'll take 2 hits on average after 4 turns of combat. Those 2 average hits will knock him down to ST4. If he's healed by a physicker (if the party is lucky enough to have one)* after the fight, he'll have ST 6. Regardless, he'll be killed if he takes two more such hits in a single combat. And many TFT weapons have a decent change of scoring 7 or 9 points of damage, which would kill him in a single blow.

This character would be very foolish to voluntarily engage in another fight.

An average second level AD&D fighter with 11 hp will take an average of 1 hit in 4 rounds of combat against a comparable foe (at AC 4, a 2nd level enemy has a 35% chance of hitting him). He'll lose 4-5 hp in each hit, assuming a longsword is used. He can fight 2 combats like this - twice as many as his TFT counterpart - without any healing before being in serious danger.

But if he has a cleric in the party, he can probably count on getting 1-2 Cure Light Wounds spells, which heal an average of 4.5 hit points each. With one Cure Light Wounds spell, he can fight an average of 3 such combats before being at ~3 HP and in serious danger. If 2 Cure Light Wounds spells are available, he can fight an average of 4 such combats before being at ~3 HP and in serious danger.

Bottom line - a 2nd level AD&D fighter can have 3-4 times as many combats as his 32 point TFT counterpart.

I've consistently stated that I want the ability to recover more ST *between* combats, so that a classic dungeon crawl is practical in TFT.

The spells I proposed are mostly usable after combat, so an individual TFT combat is just as deadly as ever. And I wouldn't much care if the spells were modified so that they take effect after a couple of minutes. This would preclude them from being used in combat.

That, it seems to me, would be a rather different situation than a "never-stopping whirling circular saw of death."


* I think a 32 point physicker is a tough sell to a player. Consider the archetypal beginning physicker with the archetypal fighter and thief below. He's worse at thieving and fighting than the thief and much worse at fighting than the fighter:

Archetypal Physicker ST10, DX11(10), IQ11. Talents - Literacy (1), Sword (2), Shield (2), Physicker (2), Thief (2) and either Bow (2) or Detect traps (2). Equipped with Cutlass (2d-2), Lg Shield (-2 hits) and maybe a horse bow (1d).

Archetypal Fighter ST12, DX12(10), IQ8 Sword (2), Shield (1), Bow (2), Running (2), Horsemanship (1). Equipped with Broadsword (2d), Longbow (1d+2), Cloth, Lg Shield (-3 hits total).

Archetypal Thief ST10, DX12(11), IQ10 Literacy (1), Sword (2), Shield (1), Thief (2), Detect Traps (2), Remove Traps (1), Recognize Value (1). Equipped with Cutlass (2d-2), Lg Shield (-2 hits).

Last edited by tbeard1999; 05-30-2018 at 11:27 AM.
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