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Old 02-03-2018, 10:44 AM   #41
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

I agree that the Naginata needs a 1 point shift of some sort, as it violates the 'bargain' that applies to most other weapons in the game, where you can trade 1 pt of ST or roughly 2 talent points for 1 pt of damage. I'd say the appropriate damage for a naginata, given that it requires a peculiar weapon talent, is 1 point higher than a polearm of the same ST. In this case, that means you should either raise the ST requirement by 1 or reduce the damage to 1d+1.

I don't have a problem with missile weapons talent; it conforms to the 'trade space' generally seen across the game, where you can trade 1 talent point for a situational 1 point DX bonus (roughly).

I also don't have a problem with the hobbity missile weapon bonus simply because they only start play with 30 attribute points.
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Old 02-03-2018, 10:56 AM   #42
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

Here's something I've toyed with in my head but never play tested: I think the rules for engagement are good, but that combat would be more dynamic (and realistic, for whatever that's worth) if many weapons had greater reach. I think it is true that if two combatants are separated by 1.33 meters between their torso's, they are so close that they don't have freedom of movement without risking an immediate attack. That is just very, very close for armed combat. However, it is also about the distance of a close bind when fighting with swords or other weapons; most of such combat happens at a range where the combatant's torsos are separated by more like 6-8 feet. You are well in range of a normal, controlled attack with a long 1-handed or normal 2-handed weapon at that distance. When fighting with pole arms, this probably extends to 8-10 feet separation. So, I think it would be appropriate to change the ranges of many melee weapons, something along the following lines:

Dagger: HTH or 1
Short 1-h weapons (short sword, mace, hammer): 1
Longer 1-h weapons (broadsword, rapier, morning star, etc.): 1 or 2
Most normal 2H weapons: 1 or 2
Most pole arms: 2 or 3

Perhaps the most important change this would lead to is that you could exchange blows without becoming engaged, and the set of hexes you threaten would increase. I suspect movement would get much more interesting and dynamic, particularly in fights with 2-3 combatants on a side at close quarters. I am not sure how it would work out in practice, but I think this is well worth exploring.
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Old 02-06-2018, 01:37 PM   #43
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attika View Post
Have to nerf the Naginata polearm's damage. 1d6 + 2 is way WAY to much for a Str 10 weapon that you can charge with.

I remember (back in the day) a Gen Con convention I attended where they (Metagaming?) was introducing the Microquest Treasure of the Silver Dragon and I signed on to be part of a questing group taking part in an introductory play-through. You got to design your own character...

I specifically remember TWO people (in a party, I believe, of 8) who were Hobbits with Naginatas, Horse Bows, and Missile Weapon skills.

Just a tad unbalanced.
Yep, but it could've been worse. Missile Weapons is an IQ 9 talent. So, drop the IQ by 1 point and take Thrown Weapons instead. Add the point to ST, raising it to ST 11. Take Boomerang talent.

Boomerangs are equal to light crossbows (2d damage; use missile weapons range adjustment), usable at ST 11 rather than ST 12, usable every turn (Thrown Weapons allows you to ready and throw a weapon in the same turn), do an extra point of damage if a halfling uses them and get a +5 DX (!) due to Thrown Weapons talent and being a halfling.

An army of those guys could really be nasty, especially if you allowed aimed attacks.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 02-07-2018 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 02-07-2018, 09:06 PM   #44
BrotherBill
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attika View Post
Have to nerf the Naginata polearm's damage. 1d6 + 2 is way WAY to much for a Str 10 weapon that you can charge with.

I remember (back in the day) a Gen Con convention I attended where they (Metagaming?) was introducing the Microquest Treasure of the Silver Dragon and I signed on to be part of a questing group taking part in an introductory play-through. You got to design your own character...

I specifically remember TWO people (in a party, I believe, of 8) who were Hobbits with Naginatas, Horse Bows, and Missile Weapon skills.

Just a tad unbalanced.
Hobbits with boomerangs are worse. Just sayin'
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Old 03-01-2018, 01:57 PM   #45
Fuhrmanator
 
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Letís catalog the list of glitches, ambiguities, contradictions, clumsy implementations, and glaring omissions that we think exist in the TFT rules.

My initial list:
I didn't see this glitch, but it has always been a big one to me:
  • ST and IQ don't scale properly. That is, experience used to boost ST or IQ creates paradoxical characters, e.g., Gandalf the Tank (wizard with 18+ ST for spell energy, but who paradoxically is very physically strong and could soak up physical damage) or Conan the PhD (fighter with high IQ to acquire more skills but who can now disbelieve easily, etc).
A succinct solution played a lot over the years proposes five stats: https://tft.brainiac.com/pmwiki/pmwi...ules.FiveStats

A general suggestion is that there be more examples of how rules apply, like in the Advanced Melee 7. EXAMPLE OF COMBAT, especially for hand-to-hand rules. Many people have interpreted them differently, and as a software developer, I know it's hard to write rules unambiguously. A real example is always best, but it takes more time to elaborate (and can contain errors!).

As for keeping track of the list of glitches or ideas of change that Ty started, it's a lot like tracking bugs/feature-requests in a software project. Plenty of online tools exist for that, and they can even keep track of people's votes to help prioritize issues. Here's an example: https://gamebook.uservoice.com/forum...back-and-ideas
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Old 03-01-2018, 03:30 PM   #46
Steve Jackson
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

Halflings with boomerangs and a pouch of shuriken are even worse.
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Old 03-01-2018, 11:59 PM   #47
Kirk
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

I'll post some of my thoughts succinctly without much detail for the very few areas that may need dinking with, and hope Steve happens across them.

My overall caveat is that TFT works very well, let's please not try to add everyone's favorite area of expertise or pet peeve alteration to end up with a
Great Unknown Role Playing System, a game with a similar acronym but more popular may already exist (not that there is anything wrong with it).

I've played and GMed this game since its inception (about 41 years) and it still is a great game to play AS IT IS, despite the lack of gender fluid pronouns present in the text.

Pole Weapons: Although some people have suggested a Charge and Defend option (I personally don't think that is allowed if the rules are read carefully) to handle opponents with pole weapons, they are a bit overpowered in many cases, even if requiring a 3 hex line charge and the like. Breaking damage out into penetrating vs. slashing etc. smells too much like the aforementioned game, but some simple solution needs to be found to keep pole weapons interesting and worthwhile, without making them the immediate go-to. I hate to suggest a solution such as being able to deflect the weapon with an attack subject to DX as it is being used in a charge instead of an attack on the wielder himself, simple and TFTish, IMO. This then spoils the charge (if it worked) and sets the two characters engaged with each other on more even footing.

Missile Weapons and DX: This might also apply to DX in general, and that is to clarify when DX makes you more accurate or instead, faster, or the converse. We still have to house rule various situations when archers have DX alterations, such as aimed shots, shock, or talent effects. When does that character get to act?

Death: We all know that life is a knife's edge, at least anyone who has lived for a while does, but TFT draws a hard line, ST 1, you are alive, ST 0, you are dead, and that just doesn't feel right. We house rule a saving roll of 3d6 vs. ST, modified by current strength. So a basic ST character of ST 12 who is currently at ST 1 and unconscious who is nibbled on by a rat or spider to ST 0 needs a 12 or less to be "healable" i.e. not currently mortally wounded, but the same character suffering from a battleaxe to the head that now sits at -4 ST would need an 8 on 3d6 to be salvageable.

Automatic anything, Sleep Spell: Maybe change a few things, being very, very careful not to upset the balance, for automatic success. For instance, the Sleep spell, successfully cast, guarantees sleep, which often equates to death. Of course, Sleep is weak in that one can be shaken awake, or hit and awakened, but Sleep can still be quite a powerful spell since it does not take into account the will or IQ of the subject of the spell.

Bolas and Boomerangs: Bolas are interesting weapons, and if the field isn't taken, often are single use items, probably penalty enough. We also house rule that someone with a bladed weapon can cut the bola off, destroying it for current battle use, to limit its repeated use in a battle or even a part of a campaign. Perhaps a saving roll of sorts to either avoid it or remove it within the context of the current rules.

Boomerang wielding Wizards are a fave of a friend of mine, and it can be an excellent combination. Perhaps a bit too excellent. Slightly dumbing down these weapons might be prudent. We house rule breakage when used, something like 1 or a 2 on a d6, sufficient to prevent proper aerodynamics when used again, and alterable by the GM depending on what the boomerang might be hitting.

There might be a few other things I could mention, but these come to the top as needs addressing, so would say the veteran players I know. :)

Last edited by Kirk; 03-02-2018 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 03-02-2018, 06:56 AM   #48
RobW
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Halflings with boomerangs and a pouch of shuriken are even worse.
Pleased to see this. To quote my friend Mark, from the brainiac list:

Around here, the ongoing problem is MPNS hobbits
(stands for Murderous Psycho Ninja Sniper). For a beginning hobbit,
ST:4, DX:17, IQ:9, Thrown weapons, huge handfuls of sha-ken. Racial
bonuses kick in, and pretty much every one of the sha-ken is likely
to hit *and* every one does +1 damage. Unarmored opponents are
shredded; if the hobbit backs off a few hexes to run up the distance
adjDX penalty, half of the handful will miss the first target - and
go on to take out the *next* target. For armored opponents, the
head-shot rules still come in handy if the hobbit also carries a
dagger. And then there's weapon poison...

Ah the good times we had though.
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Old 03-02-2018, 07:01 AM   #49
RobW
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

To amplify one of Kirk's excellent points. As written, distance penalties for missile weapons affect adjDX and therefore would seem to affect order of action and rate of fire. We never played that way but perhaps we should have. It would be nice to clarify the intention of the rules here.
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Old 03-02-2018, 07:16 AM   #50
RobW
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

The jobs table and aging rules might not qualify as a glitch given their intended use. But I once simulated the lives of 100,000 farmers and soldiers on this table. Results were published on the brainiac list, but a few highlights, which I have always found entertaining:

The 100,000 "soldiers" all had legal 5/16 jobs (5 or less = extra point, 16 or more = threat). Their life expectancy was then 27 years. Over 90% of the soldiers died "on the job", ie from misadventure. In fact, an amazing 58% of the age 16 soldiers died before they reached 17. Sounds pretty reasonable so far, right?
But about 9% of this population went on to reach very old ages (max=132 years old!), obtain very high numbers of character points (max=142!), and die peacefully. By the ITL system, the most powerful people on earth are 69-years-old. These people have been rolling weekly to increase their attributes for 54 years. That works out to 52*54 = 2808 chances to increase points. On a 5/16 job we would expect about 130 successes (although they have been losing one point a year through ageing). The members of this special group obtain so many points that they can survive any 4d damage roll. On starting their 70th year, the ageing rules really kick in, and the surviving population declines, in number and power.

The more peaceful 3/18 farmers led a less dramatic existence. Life expectancy for this group is 30 yrs, only 10% died in their first year of labor, and the oldest of the 100,000 farmers was 86.
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