Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-16-2018, 02:01 PM   #31
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

Quote:
Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
The Crossbow, far more than gunpowder, was capable of defeating knights with relatively untrained use. At the time, it was more accurate, more powerful, easier to train, and way more reliable. The energy on target is comparable to a 7.62N round... much slower, but way more mass. 3000+ grains at 200+ fps, and (unlike the firearms of the day) able to fire a case hardened AP bolt with good accuracy.
Um.... 3000 grains at 200 fps = 0.2 kg at 60m/s = 360J. That's about a tenth the energy of a 7.62N round -- and a normal crossbow bolt is closer to 300 grains than 3000.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2018, 04:32 PM   #32
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

Quote:
Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
You're forgetting the single most important element of weapons: The weapon does not need to meet the flesh, merely to put its energy into flesh efficiently.

A saxon-style handaxe to chain & gambeson put the pig's right rib into its left, without even breaking skin. There were pieces of bone through all the organ meats.

The broadsword to the shoulder shattered the clavicle through chain and gambeson.

And, because people often claim that the time betwen death and test is often resulting in brittleness - the pig was still walking at 0700, testing was done at 1000, put into the cooking pit at 1015, and was feast at 1600.

Not one hit made significant damage to the armor - but every blow broke bones and disrupted tissue. Made the ribs hard to eat, too.

So, people from a time when these things were a life and death issue and had the real experience of using them in deadly combat, would waste their time wearing 40lbs of chain and bulky padding underneath to no useful effect? Somehow I don't think so. It's obvious that the armour served 2 purposes; chain prevented penetration, padding spread impact force. If the recreations aren't showing that, then they are not simulating the armour of the period correctly. I would suggest that the underlying gambeson/padding is being incorrectly modelled.
Chris Rice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2018, 04:50 PM   #33
Chris Goodwin
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
So, people from a time when these things were a life and death issue and had the real experience of using them in deadly combat, would waste their time wearing 40lbs of chain and bulky padding underneath to no useful effect? Somehow I don't think so. It's obvious that the armour served 2 purposes; chain prevented penetration, padding spread impact force. If the recreations aren't showing that, then they are not simulating the armour of the period correctly. I would suggest that the underlying gambeson/padding is being incorrectly modelled.
Whacking a dead pig is a lot different from whacking a live opponent, who is both trying to avoid being whacked and whack you back. The people in the real world who test everything from crash dummies to ballistic armor have to work pretty carefully to come up with a testbed that matches human results, and even then they're always coming up with better and better models.

Also, I would say that even then, a broken bone is a lot better than an axe to the lung.
__________________
Chris Goodwin

I've started a subreddit for discussion of INWO and Illuminati. Check it out!
Chris Goodwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2018, 10:13 PM   #34
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Um.... 3000 grains at 200 fps = 0.2 kg at 60m/s = 360J. That's about a tenth the energy of a 7.62N round -- and a normal crossbow bolt is closer to 300 grains than 3000.
The 740-lb draw medieval crossbow I researched and used as a model for The Deadly Spring article was less than 10lbs to haul around but it's short, inefficient stroke delivered only 30-50J on target - that's the real-world measure, not my model.
__________________
The Deadly Spring "...probably the most infamous Pyramid article of all time."-Jeffro's Car Wars Blog
Gaming Ballistic: Home of Gaming Ballistic, LLC and my blog.
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2018, 05:30 PM   #35
bookworm562
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

The halfling is clearly broken. I'm thinking a +1 is a big deal, but +3? I've tried to give the Talent Missile Weapons for free and take away the +3 bonus, but basically I'm tired of the, "Halfling Biker Bitch-Boy Gang," and the 70-od Sha-Ken being thrown each turn.

We dropped double damage on the Charge with Pole Weapons. Frankly, the 2-hex jab is such a good thing, why would anyone ask for more? It absolutely doesn't have to be realistic, just playable and entertaining. A feeling of realism is all that is needed.

A change in the experience rules that result in less attribute bloating, or at least emphasis. We never had any problem but it was a hot topic of discussion.

Possible experience point cost for talents and spells.

Eliminating the distinction between Hero and Wizard.

Increase in adjDX required to improve rate of fire OR reduced damage for two dice missile weapons. I like the idea of a lucky shot killing the low ST wizard, not taking out the human tank.

Thank you, and any critiques would be nice.

Last edited by bookworm562; 01-19-2018 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Clarity
bookworm562 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2018, 12:02 PM   #36
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

The more I think about it, the more I like Rick Smith's idea of revising the weapons table to account for penetrating damage, versus crushing damage, without complicating the rules by addressing them under that name, or coming up with extra die rolls or any of that stuff. Simply revising the range of results for the differing damage results accomplishes the exact same thing without having to worry about the details AND makes it more difficult (if done carefully) to choose the perfect weapon.

I also think the idea of Shuriken needs to be looked at much more carefully -- in point of actual fact, they do very little damage to an armored opponent, unless there is an incredibly skilled/lucky hit on such a person. Historically, they were more of a distraction than an actual source of injury (unless poisoned -- and yes, I know they were rusty and could cause lock-jaw, and that probably happened, but it's not terribly heroic to say "wait two weeks, THEN you'll be sorry!"). So, in my opinion, they are bit "overpowered" in the game.
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2018, 07:10 AM   #37
BrotherBill
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

So, if you are not engaged by moving into a front hex of a figure unable to harm you (being under a Freeze spell, for example) why are you engaged by a figure which has moved to far to act during the action phase?
BrotherBill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2018, 12:03 PM   #38
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
The more I think about it, the more I like Rick Smith's idea of revising the weapons table to account for penetrating damage, versus crushing damage, without complicating the rules by addressing them under that name, or coming up with extra die rolls or any of that stuff. Simply revising the range of results for the differing damage results accomplishes the exact same thing without having to worry about the details AND makes it more difficult (if done carefully) to choose the perfect weapon.

I also think the idea of Shuriken needs to be looked at much more carefully -- in point of actual fact, they do very little damage to an armored opponent, unless there is an incredibly skilled/lucky hit on such a person. Historically, they were more of a distraction than an actual source of injury (unless poisoned -- and yes, I know they were rusty and could cause lock-jaw, and that probably happened, but it's not terribly heroic to say "wait two weeks, THEN you'll be sorry!"). So, in my opinion, they are bit "overpowered" in the game.
Maybe the Peculiar Weapons section should be divided into a Peculiar Weapons section and a Ridiculous Weapons (or Dramatic Weapons) section. Peculiar weapons are unusual, but have more or less realistic rules. Ridiculous weapons have explicitly fantastic rules but are highly optional.
tbeard1999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2018, 01:19 PM   #39
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Maybe the Peculiar Weapons section should be divided into a Peculiar Weapons section and a Ridiculous Weapons (or Dramatic Weapons) section. Peculiar weapons are unusual, but have more or less realistic rules. Ridiculous weapons have explicitly fantastic rules but are highly optional.
That's not a bad idea -- maybe call it "Cinematic Weapons"...
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2018, 10:56 PM   #40
Attika
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

Have to nerf the Naginata polearm's damage. 1d6 + 2 is way WAY to much for a Str 10 weapon that you can charge with.

I remember (back in the day) a Gen Con convention I attended where they (Metagaming?) was introducing the Microquest Treasure of the Silver Dragon and I signed on to be part of a questing group taking part in an introductory play-through. You got to design your own character...

I specifically remember TWO people (in a party, I believe, of 8) who were Hobbits with Naginatas, Horse Bows, and Missile Weapon skills.

Just a tad unbalanced.
Attika is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.