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Old 06-13-2018, 10:32 PM   #31
Pursuivant
 
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Default Re: Question about Muscle-powered Range Weapons...

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Some designs have 80-90% letoff - You can hold a 70# bow with 7-14# of force at full draw. Check out the force-draw curves of modern compound bows. They're nutso.
Yeah. Just about everything about modern compound bows is different from traditional stick and recurve bows. They're vastly superior in just about every way except for the fact that you need high tech materials and machinery to build them.

For non-hoplology geeks, "let-off" is the force needed to draw a bow at a given percentage of full draw. Pulleys and cams give you a huge mechanical advantage when using a modern compound bow, especially as you increase the percentage of draw length to full draw.

If a traditional "self" (i.e., one piece of wood carefully selected and shaped) longbow has letoff curve which is pretty much linear or even exponential, a compound bow has a letoff curve which sort of resembles a bell curve. That means its actually easier to hold a compound bow at full draw than partially drawn, which is the opposite of a traditional bow.

In turn, that makes it easy to wait or aim for long periods of time without having to ready the bow by drawing it. Additionally, stabilizers, improved arrow rests, advanced arrows, string releases, and other gadgets correct just about every potential problem with releasing the arrow and getting it to fly straight.

That makes compound bows incredibly accurate compared to traditional bows both for target shooting and "stand" hunting. I don't know how much better they are for shooting moving targets on the fly, since they're usually a bit heavier and the stabilizers slightly slow your ability to track a fast-moving target.

Arguably, Bow (Compound) could be a separate Easy skill which defaults to Bow (Traditional) at -4 and vice-versa.
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Old 06-14-2018, 01:54 AM   #32
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Default Re: Question about Muscle-powered Range Weapons...

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Arguably, Bow (Compound) could be a separate Easy skill which defaults to Bow (Traditional) at -4 and vice-versa.
I'd just be unkind with familiarity penalties if I was trying to be all realistic about it.

Different sights, -2; Different letoff curve, -2; Stabilisers vs no stabilisers, -2; using a string releaser, -2. That's -8 if you just pick up a modern bow without having seen or used one before. The difference is that eight hours of practice gets rid of all of it.

Alternatively, it's all part of a TL penalty, TL8 vs TL0, and is thus also a -8 penalty, though Bow is a skill that isn't considered a /TL skill in the RAW. I, as a house rule, generally consider TL penalties to DX skills as being familiarity penalties (except when a roll is required against the skill off IQ).
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Old 06-14-2018, 02:17 AM   #33
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Default Re: Question about Muscle-powered Range Weapons...

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I'd just be unkind with familiarity penalties if I was trying to be all realistic about it.
That's what I'd go with, and don't forget draw ST and grip setting (is it a righty when your a lefty? Is it universal when your used to an offset left grip? Etc.).

The only difference between my recurve and my compound is the left off curve*, and honestly I wouldn't even require an hour of practice for someone to get over that going from recurve/straight bow to compound, but the other direction would be brutal.

I mean, I was a bit shocked the first time I broke over a compound, but not so much that I couldn't still shoot straight.


* No sights, no string releaser, no stabilizers, no fancy doodads, they're both universal grips (though they are both set for a left handed grip).

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I, as a house rule, generally consider TL penalties to DX skills as being familiarity penalties (except when a roll is required against the skill off IQ).
I've always done TL penalties as Familiarity penalties. I'm just extremely harsh on things that have undergone radical technology shifts.



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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
It makes using an over-strength bow easier, but I'm not sure how much easier.
Coming back to this. I might do compound bows as basically having 'elven' bow for free. Or maybe halving the penalty for using an over ST bow up to a certain point.
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Old 06-14-2018, 02:34 AM   #34
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Default Re: Question about Muscle-powered Range Weapons...

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Bows are a special snowflake, with fairly substantial rules to that effect in both Basic and Low Tech.

Also, the direct result is that giving a character an overstrength bow that they are too weak to properly draw increases the damage they do should they manage to hit anything with it.
I was always wondering how to represent "has an amount of ST that is enough to draw a bow, but so little that doing so results in shaky aim and increased exhaustion, much like from wielding a too-heavy sword", and LT gave a logical answer to that. Also, very importantly, LT's answer is very streamlined - no extra rolls, no table lookups, no multiplication nor division, just apply a penalty to skill and to FP like you always do for not meeting MinST.
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Old 06-14-2018, 04:09 AM   #35
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Default Re: Question about Muscle-powered Range Weapons...

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
It is. Though, hold it long enough and your arm will tire. You're holding I think 1/3 the draw weight at full extension.

It makes using an over-strength bow easier*, but I'm not sure how much easier.


When I was younger I could break over a 60 pound compound bow and hold it for several seconds, long enough to sight and take aim, but I couldn't do that with a 60 pound recurve.
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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
You could design a compound bow with a draw force curve that didn't dip at the end, but it's hard to come up with a reason you'd want to.
cool cheers,

I thought that was the case but started second guessing myself, years of experience on the internet has left me a bit gun shy of making 100% absolute positive statements! ;-)
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Old 06-14-2018, 05:18 AM   #36
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Default Re: Question about Muscle-powered Range Weapons...

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Thanks for the interesting link! It's very good information since the Chinese standardized draw weights (like the Japanese sort of did) which gives nice historical data points
.


Cheers, no worries

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
The stories of "two opponents transfixed" aren't necessarily fanciful. There are stories of Crusaders getting "pinned" to their horses by Saracen/Ottoman horse bows as a result of hits to the rider's thigh.

Given a lack of decent armour I can see how it would be physically possible, it's more that I question two people will be in the right position at the right time for it to happen very often! But weird, unlikely things happen!

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Additionally, plenty of modern bow-hunters have reported torso shots (ideally to the Vitals - double lung shot) which completely penetrated a deer's body with sufficient force to drive the arrow well into the ground beyond the target! Given that a typical whitetail deer is effectively SM 0 and has 9-10 HP (assuming ~100-150 lb. live weight) that's pretty close to human size.

In GURPS terms, treat it as a critical hit which inflicts double or triple damage with basic damage which inflicts (target HP) + n HP of damage vs. an unarmored target. That means overpenetration which inflicts at least 1 HP of damage to the next target downrange. A composite bow of ST 14, which inflicts maximum damage, does 6 + 3 HP of basic damage. Roll a CH and say you double damage. That leaves 8 HP of basic damage to overpenetrate. Plenty of energy to do serious damage to another victim!
Not sure I'd have the critical hit bonus to damage count for over penetration, it's not like the absolute penetrative power of the shot has increased (your bows draw weight didn't just massively increase), but rather some lucky combination of things means you managed to do lots of damage on the the target or got through their DR better than you'd otherwise normally expect.

But that said it's not something I'm that worried about. As you say arrows will go through some targets depending on what they hit on their journey so it's the end result that matters not how the system get's there!



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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
The Emperor was wise. Forensic examination of the Mary Rose archers showed young men with signs of arthritis in their shoulders, probably due to pulling excessively heavy "artillery" bows. I could see archers of other nations suffering the same consequences for their "ambition."

Part of drawing a bow is being able to draw it consistently and with a good release every time. Even if you can physically draw a heavier bow, you're going to have problems practicing with it for long and accuracy won't be as good due to muscle fatigue in your arms and fingers and inability to fully control the draw and the release.

In GURPS terms, that's a skill penalty for using too-heavy a weapon and/or FP losses due to use of Extra Effort.

Additionally, if you're struggling to draw a bow you cannot take time to aim. You must draw and then quickly release. Peering down your arrow with your bow drawn while you take your Wait or Aim maneuvers requires a bow you can easily control and/or ST-based Bow skill rolls.

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I was always wondering how to represent "has an amount of ST that is enough to draw a bow, but so little that doing so results in shaky aim and increased exhaustion, much like from wielding a too-heavy sword", and LT gave a logical answer to that.
I used to use a house rule that was basically a hybrid of a Lifting roll with Bow skill allow an archer to draw as if they had a higher ST, (I wrote it up in the thread I posted earlier) you could extend its use for holding a ow drawn on each aim action as well. The end result would be archers who were not relying on doing well everytime on that roll should be able to draw and maintain a draw while subsequently aiming. But those where were needing good rolls will struggle the longer they try to hold it.

Here it is:

One thing I do is allow Archers to leverage their Skill in order to use heavier bows.

I basically allow a roll against ST based Bow skill. Success gives MoS x 5% as an increase on Basic lift for calculating Pull. No success means no additional benefit.

This means that a good bowmen can draw quicker (in one turn not two for bows that would be otherwise over that particular threshold) and can draw bows heavier than their ST alone would allow.

It is another roll though, so I also allow people to "take 11" which is to assume they rolled 11 and calculate a set bonus from there. e.g a Skill 14 bowman could apply an extra 15% on his BL without bothering to roll.



However I have to say more recently I've gone with the technique idea that was later in the thread. Also that is an old house rule stuff like Trained ST might well be a better fit now.
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Old 06-14-2018, 12:08 PM   #37
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Default Re: Question about Muscle-powered Range Weapons...

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
I'd just be unkind with familiarity penalties if I was trying to be all realistic about it.
Yeah, in terms of being able to adapt to using a modern compound bow vs. a traditional bow it's relatively quick to adapt. It might be harder to go the other way if you're used to all the gadgets. In particular, getting a consistent clean arrow release is much harder with a traditional bow.

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Different sights, -2; Different letoff curve, -2; Stabilisers vs no stabilisers, -2; using a string releaser, -2. That's -8 if you just pick up a modern bow without having seen or used one before. The difference is that eight hours of practice gets rid of all of it.
I wouldn't give penalties for the different letoff curve from traditional to compound. My experience is that you get used to it VERY quickly. (But, going the other way, hell yeah!)

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Alternatively, it's all part of a TL penalty, TL8 vs TL0, and is thus also a -8 penalty, though Bow is a skill that isn't considered a /TL skill in the RAW. I, as a house rule, generally consider TL penalties to DX skills as being familiarity penalties (except when a roll is required against the skill off IQ).
This is a very nice house rule and makes a lot of sense for skills which are partially TL dependent, like Housekeeping. Basic ideas remain the same (e.g., cook an edible dinner, shoot the bow accurately) but the exact means used to get there can vary widely.

In some cases, however, going high tech to low-tech causes more problems than going the other way. Buri the TL3 Mongol horse archer is probably going to figure out how to use a TL8 compound bow, or turn on a stove pretty quickly. OTOH, Kyle the TL8 bow-hunter is maybe going to have problems using a thumb ring string release or string a horse and sinew recurve, or turn fresh horse blood into something you'd want to eat.
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Old 06-14-2018, 12:22 PM   #38
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Default Re: Question about Muscle-powered Range Weapons...

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Given a lack of decent armour I can see how it would be physically possible, it's more that I question two people will be in the right position at the right time for it to happen very often! But weird, unlikely things happen!
THAT'S the tricky bit, but it can happen, like shown below where the hunters accidentally kill two deer when they only meant to kill one. For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1rQpqIbBsU

(Also really nice example of how easy it is for a low ST person to use a hunting weight compound bow and still inflict enough damage to not just kill but also overpenetrate! In GURPS terms, that's a hit to the Vitals on the first deer, inflicting ~15+ HP of basic damage. Then, overpenetration to the second deer inflicting 5+ HP to the vitals.)

For extra damage from a CH applying to overpenetration, I was thinking of a double lung shot where the arrow basically pushes through air rather than meat for part of its track through the victim's body. That's an easy way to inflict a lot of damage on a living target while the projectile still maintains a lot of kinetic energy.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I used to use a house rule that was basically a hybrid of a Lifting roll with Bow skill allow an archer to draw as if they had a higher ST
Similar to something I came up with back in the day, but a bit more realistic in terms of paying attention to actual draw weights. And, like my HR, superceded by the Strongbow perk.
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:48 AM   #39
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Default Re: Question about Muscle-powered Range Weapons...

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
THAT'S the tricky bit, but it can happen, like shown below where the hunters accidentally kill two deer when they only meant to kill one. For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1rQpqIbBsU

(Also really nice example of how easy it is for a low ST person to use a hunting weight compound bow and still inflict enough damage to not just kill but also overpenetrate! In GURPS terms, that's a hit to the Vitals on the first deer, inflicting ~15+ HP of basic damage. Then, overpenetration to the second deer inflicting 5+ HP to the vitals.)
Cool (glad they found both though and as the chap says in hindsight he shouldn't have allowed the shot), I don't have sound at work did they state the weight of the deer?


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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
For extra damage from a CH applying to overpenetration, I was thinking of a double lung shot where the arrow basically pushes through air rather than meat for part of its track through the victim's body. That's an easy way to inflict a lot of damage on a living target while the projectile still maintains a lot of kinetic energy.
Maybe, TBH if were going to get into anatomy and overpenetration that's a can of worms anyway*. E.g lungs do contain air pockets but they have some substance, plus you have stuff like rib cages, intercostal muscles etc as well.

Of course the basic point is the human body is not homogenous when it comes to offering resistance to a penetrating object passing through it whether or no the tissues involved are deemed as vital by GURPS. As well as the torso not only being not homogenous when it comes to offering resistance, but often not of uniform thickness either. And that before we eve get into what is a HP.


Honestly overpenetration threshold = 1x HP is good enough IMO!

For me the fact that you get 3x injury for each point of penetration (and no overpentartin cap) is the system allowing you to inflict a lot of damage per penetration.


*and that before we get into comparative anatomy i,e deer vs. human not just in body layout once penetration has occurred but in likely angles of penetration!


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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Similar to something I came up with back in the day, but a bit more realistic in terms of paying attention to actual draw weights. And, like my HR, superceded by the Strongbow perk.
Yeah it worked well (IMO) but it is an extra roll every round (and I also use on target at times so that can be an extra roll when aiming as well).
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:17 PM   #40
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Cool (glad they found both though and as the chap says in hindsight he shouldn't have allowed the shot), I don't have sound at work did they state the weight of the deer?
No, but both deer were on the small side, so I'd estimate no more than about 120 lbs.
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