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Old 06-13-2018, 11:55 AM   #1
afschell
 
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Default Extra Attack = Extra Defense?

Does having an Extra Attack, along with Ambidexterity, 2 Fencing weapons (sabers) and Weapon Master (saber) among other things, allow for trying to parry an attack with a second parry roll if the first one fails?

I know it's Extra Attack and not Extra Defense but still ...
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:08 PM   #2
ericbsmith
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack = Extra Defense?

You get one defense per incoming attack. See Exploits, p. 46 under Defending. The only thing that allows you to use two different defenses on the same attack is if you take an All-Out Defense (Double) as your maneuver for the turn. See Exploits, p. 31 under All-Out Defense.

You can make multiple defense rolls per turn against different incoming attacks, at a cumulative -4 penalty if using the same weapon (with reduced penalties for Weapons Master, Trained by a Master, and fencing weapons). See Exploits, p. 48 under Parrying/Number of Parries.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:45 PM   #3
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Default Re: Extra Attack = Extra Defense?

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Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
You can make multiple defense rolls per turn against different incoming attacks, at a cumulative -4 penalty if using the same weapon (with reduced penalties for Weapons Master, Trained by a Master, and fencing weapons). See Exploits, p. 48 under Parrying/Number of Parries.
I've always run it as one Parry per weapon, with the cumulative -4 penalty being weapon dependent.

So someone (who is Ambidextrous) armed with two weapons that allow parries can parry twice at 0, then twice at -4, then twice at -8, etc. Each parry being against a different attack unless they took AOD (Double).

Yes, this makes dual weapon fighting fencing Ambidextrous Weapon Masters just bloody amazing with the number of parries they get. Which is why they get flail and giant weapon users thrown at them.
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Old 06-13-2018, 04:16 PM   #4
afschell
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack = Extra Defense?

For the sake of the discussion, Exploits states "one active defense" where defenses are Dodge, Parry and Block (emphasis their's).

So, one could argue (and I am NOT trying to start one) is that you have chosen one (i.e. Parry) and since you have the "Extra Attack" advantage you get an "extra" parry roll (instead of the one defense roll that is in the RAW) if you have a second weapon ready to parry with.

I definitely am not suggesting that the "Extra Attack" advantage allows (for example) a Block and Parry defense rolls. Just a second try at parrying if the first one doesn't succeed (with the Exploits, p48, number of parries penalties applied).

It hasn't come up in the game I'm running but it may. Trying to stay ahead of the curve a bit.
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Old 06-13-2018, 05:15 PM   #5
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Default Re: Extra Attack = Extra Defense?

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Originally Posted by afschell View Post
I definitely am not suggesting that the "Extra Attack" advantage allows (for example) a Block and Parry defense rolls. Just a second try at parrying if the first one doesn't succeed (with the Exploits, p48, number of parries penalties applied).
It's not outside the bounds to allow it though. Extra Attack is an expensive option, in regular GURPS 1/4 or 1/5 the cost of Altered Time Rate† which give an entire extra maneuver worth of attacks and defenses...



† Found in it's reworked form on the Martial Artist as Uninterrupted Flurry.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:04 PM   #6
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Default Re: Extra Attack = Extra Defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by afschell View Post
I definitely am not suggesting that the "Extra Attack" advantage allows (for example) a Block and Parry defense rolls. Just a second try at parrying if the first one doesn't succeed (with the Exploits, p48, number of parries penalties applied).
Being able to Parry & Parry again against the same attack is the functional equivalent of being able to Parry & Block the same attack. In fact, it can be significantly better, because it can utilize just one skill which makes it easier to buy the defense score higher. In the RAW there is very little functional difference between a Parry and a Block, except that you Parry with a weapon and Block with a shield or buckler. It's really just a difference in nomenclature for what are functionally equivalent acts - you use an object in your hand to deflect an incoming attack.


The thing is, a character that can double defend against the same attack will almost never fail a defense roll if they can get their defense roll up to 12+ (not too hard, especially in Dungeon Fantasy where skill-20 is not out of the question). And then you throw in Luck to cover the odd double-failure and they will basically never fail a defense roll. I just don't like the implications of a character being that untouchable in combat.

*IF* I were to allow Double Defense as an advantage at all I would only allow it to be used once per turn. That way two opponents - or one opponent utilizing Extra Attacks/Rapid Strikes/Dual Weapon Attacks - at least has a chance of overwhelming your defenses. I would also charge at least as much as Extra Attack. It's a significantly valuable advantage that can make it almost impossible for an opponent to land a blow.
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Last edited by ericbsmith; 06-14-2018 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 06-14-2018, 03:22 PM   #7
martinl
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack = Extra Defense?

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Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
... a character that can double defend against the same attack will almost never fail a defense roll if they can get their defense roll up to 12+ (not too hard, especially in Dungeon Fantasy where skill-20 is not out of the question). And then you throw in Luck to cover the odd double-failure and they will basically never fail a defense roll. I just don't like the implications of a character being that untouchable in combat.

*IF* I were to allow Double Defense as an advantage at all I would only allow it to be used once per turn. ...
Altered time rate already allows a character to (take a turn, perhaps to all out attack) and then all out defend, giving you two defenses against almost any attack. Something that just gave two defenses is presumably not as valuable. I agree it is not part of extra attack or dual wielding however - pay for it separately. 25 pts passes my gut check.
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:02 PM   #8
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Default Re: Extra Attack = Extra Defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by afschell View Post
For the sake of the discussion, Exploits states "one active defense" where defenses are Dodge, Parry and Block (emphasis their's).

So, one could argue (and I am NOT trying to start one) is that you have chosen one (i.e. Parry) and since you have the "Extra Attack" advantage you get an "extra" parry roll (instead of the one defense roll that is in the RAW) if you have a second weapon ready to parry with.

I definitely am not suggesting that the "Extra Attack" advantage allows (for example) a Block and Parry defense rolls. Just a second try at parrying if the first one doesn't succeed (with the Exploits, p48, number of parries penalties applied).

It hasn't come up in the game I'm running but it may. Trying to stay ahead of the curve a bit.
But it doesn't.

You are welcome to check here or elsewhere with the authors of any GURPS volume.
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: Extra Attack = Extra Defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by afschell View Post
Exploits states "one active defense" where defenses are Dodge, Parry and Block (emphasis their's).
Quote:
Originally Posted by lachimba View Post
But it doesn't.
Quoting for truth here.

If you want to allow double defense rolls then go right ahead. It's your game, after all. But it's not RAW, and I've already warned you what the consequence will be - players (and opponents) will be almost unhittable if their weapon score is 18+ giving parry 12+ (and many of the templates start out with weapon skills that high or even higher).
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Old 06-16-2018, 04:43 AM   #10
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Default Re: Extra Attack = Extra Defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
Quoting for truth here.

If you want to allow double defense rolls then go right ahead. It's your game, after all. But it's not RAW, and I've already warned you what the consequence will be - players (and opponents) will be almost unhittable if their weapon score is 18+ giving parry 12+ (and many of the templates start out with weapon skills that high or even higher).
Wait till you get a Peshkali with 6 attacks!
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