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Old 01-16-2018, 08:36 PM   #11
malloyd
 
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Default Re: Volumetric Sight

Part of the problem is I think there are actually a couple different things involved here and you haven't clarified which ones you need.

Start with imagining the volume is a few inches around your head. This is pretty clearly just 360 Vision (and maybe part of Injury Tolerance: No Eyes given that putting out your eyes won't stop you from seeing).

Expand the volume and it mostly is just that displace your viewpoint form of Clairvoyance - that's all you need to model most of the benefits it's plenty to let you look at distant things close up, see around corners, or look at the back of your head. Or it would be if you can still only pay attention to one thing at a time.

It's the pay attention to everything in the volume from all viewpoints in it that I think is the problem. Notionally you just add infinitely many levels of Enhanced Tracking, for infinite points, but that probably somewhat overestimates the real value of the ability. This is the part you probably need to better define what the benefits actually *are*.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:48 PM   #12
munin
 
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Default Re: Volumetric Sight

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTim View Post
If we had a No Range modifier, Clairsentience with No Rang and Area Effect might do the trick.
I think No Range is just Melee Attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
…Then, your ability to see in all directions within a volume would be 360° Vision and Penetrating Vision, both with this modifier applied.…
I was thinking that Area Effect would moot Penetrating -- if part of your area was on the other side of the wall, then you get 360° POVs from that side of the wall too.

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
A combination of all of 360° Vision (Panoptic 2, +60%), … enough levels of Telescopic Vision, Intuitive Mathematician (only for calculating images from other viewing directions) and Accessory Perk (able to see images constructed with Intuitive Mathematician) would probably be able to do pretty much all of what you describe.…
I don't think you would need to be doing calculations in your head, even intuitively. It should just work as a sense (for example, you don't need Intuitive Mathemetician to construct a 3D map of your surroundings from your binocular vision, you just do it).

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Part of the problem is I think there are actually a couple different things involved here and you haven't clarified which ones you need. … Notionally you just add infinitely many levels of Enhanced Tracking, for infinite points, but that probably somewhat overestimates the real value of the ability. This is the part you probably need to better define what the benefits actually *are*.
Possibly. Worm Skitter was where I started this thought train and her power includes massive multi-tasking, so she might just have thousands of Compartmentalized Minds all using Clairsentience (Limited Positioning, Bug POVs).

But for the idea of volumetric sight, maybe it would be better to imagine how a 4D creature would view a 3D volume. A 2D creature in a 2D house couldn't see past the walls, but we 3D creatures could look at an entire 2D neighborhood all at once (I mean we could only focus on one thing at a time, but we would see the whole thing in our peripheral vision at least; and ignoring how 3D light and 2D objects would interact anyway). Similarly, a 4D creature could "see" an entire 3D volume and "ignore" barriers.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:16 AM   #13
MrTim
 
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Default Re: Volumetric Sight

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Originally Posted by munin View Post
I think No Range is just Melee Attack.
Has that ever been stated either by Kromm or in an official 4th ed. product? RAW it's for attacks only. And it seems to me that No Range should be a bigger limitation than 1/10 Range, when a Range C Melee Attack is the same -30% as Reduced Range 1/10.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:31 AM   #14
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Volumetric Sight

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Originally Posted by MrTim View Post
Has that ever been stated either by Kromm or in an official 4th ed. product? RAW it's for attacks only. And it seems to me that No Range should be a bigger limitation than 1/10 Range, when a Range C Melee Attack is the same -30% as Reduced Range 1/10.
Mêlée Attack is officially applicable to sensory traits, though what it actually does differs from what it does to attacks.
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:06 AM   #15
Andreas
 
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Default Re: Volumetric Sight

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Originally Posted by munin View Post
I don't think you would need to be doing calculations in your head, even intuitively. It should just work as a sense (for example, you don't need Intuitive Mathemetician to construct a 3D map of your surroundings from your binocular vision, you just do it).
Such an Intuitive Mathematician Advantage doesn't have to represent consciously doing calculations. The brain does a lot of calculations for processing normal vision as well. I forgot to add Reflexive for it though, which is probably required for that.

Last edited by Andreas; 01-17-2018 at 02:19 AM.
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:24 AM   #16
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Default Re: Volumetric Sight

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Originally Posted by munin View Post
I was thinking that Area Effect would moot Penetrating -- if part of your area was on the other side of the wall, then you get 360° POVs from that side of the wall too.
I'm not convinced that Area Effect on a sense is balanced, at least not to extend its "viewpoint" this way. Area Effect doubles every level, for one thing, which means it ends up not taking too many levels to cover a fairly massive area. Area Effect 10, for example, covers over half a mile, for +500%. That means, on 360 Vision, that it would cost 150 points to see everything, from all sides, constantly. Compare that to Clairsentience (Clairvoyance, -10%; Increased Range, X100, +60%) [75] - half the price, sure, but it only lets you project your normal vision to one place within that half-mile range, requires a roll to do so, and you're still limited by your normal limits on sight. The 360 Vision with Area Effect has much more than just twice the utility of the Clairsentience build.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:48 AM   #17
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Volumetric Sight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Such an Intuitive Mathematician Advantage doesn't have to represent consciously doing calculations. The brain does a lot of calculations for processing normal vision as well. I forgot to add Reflexive for it though, which is probably required for that.
The brain does a lot to process your senses into a map of the environment, you don't need a special advantage.

Also it seems to me that superior 3d spatial sense has a more appropriate trait than Intuitive Mathematician,but I wouldn't require that either.

Being able to use your senses effectively is just a feature of having senses.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:26 PM   #18
MrTim
 
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Default Re: Volumetric Sight

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Mêlée Attack is officially applicable to sensory traits, though what it actually does differs from what it does to attacks.
Where is this spelled out? I was sure I'd seen something to that effect, but I've checked Characters, Powers, and Enhanced Senses and not found anything.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:23 PM   #19
Andreas
 
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Default Re: Volumetric Sight

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The brain does a lot to process your senses into a map of the environment, you don't need a special advantage.

Also it seems to me that superior 3d spatial sense has a more appropriate trait than Intuitive Mathematician,but I wouldn't require that either.

Being able to use your senses effectively is just a feature of having senses.
The point of having Intuitive Mathematician in that build is to be able to process your sensory information into a different map of the enviroment than what you get by default. The original post had a requirement that the user be able to observe the objects withing range from every direction (which is not something you get by default, by default you can only observe them from your direction), not to have the benefits of 3d spatial sense.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:58 PM   #20
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Default Re: Volumetric Sight

Human brains don't process information about what's behind your head at all, but 360 degree vision still lets you use that information to form a full picture of your environment, instead of getting confused and thinking its all in front of you.

Being able to use the sense is a function of having the sense at all.
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