Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate

hcobb · 12-15-2019, 11:51 AM

Fine Plate (for humans) stops 6 hits, -4 DX, $5,000 55.0lb MA 6
+3 Chainmail Stops 6 hits*, -3 DX $4,200 30.0lb MA 6
Leather w/Stone Flesh Stops 6 hits*, -2 DX $4,100 16lb MA 8

* - Also effective against high level occult zaps.

Skarg · 12-15-2019, 03:34 PM

Stone Flesh is a massive bargain no matter how you slice it (well, unless your opponent blasts it with lightning and de-enchants it).

And yes, a simple comparison has those options more competitive for the (bogus as listed, as you well know since you've also complained about those) prices, but what master armorers mainly do is make fine weapons and armor.

In contrast. what wizards who can enchant do, could be all sorts of things. Even when they do spend their time enchanting, and even when they choose to make those enchantments publicly available for the listed book price (which in my campaigns, is almost never), they may be enchanting any number of other sorts of things rather than competing with master armorers.

And, enchantments can be added to fine plate just as easily as they can be added to leather or chain. (Which not only is much more protective, but also wears out much less quickly due to damage.)

So fine equipment is a different market from enchanted equipment, and the enchantment prices listed are super bargains.

The smart shopper (if he can find enchantment available at all) will figure out how much armor they can stand to wear (because of the weight, DX, MA, convenience and social issues) and then enchant that as much as they can manage.

TippetsTX · 12-15-2019, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

Fine Plate (for humans) stops 6 hits, -4 DX, $5,000 55.0lb MA 6
+3 Chainmail Stops 6 hits*, -3 DX $4,200 30.0lb MA 6
Leather w/Stone Flesh Stops 6 hits*, -2 DX $4,100 16lb MA 8

* - Also effective against high level occult zaps.

Easy fix... anything you want to enchant must first be of 'fine' quality ($ x10). That will raise the baseline cost for all magic items.

I don't think you should be able to grab a mass-produced cuirass off the shelf at Ye 'Ole Walmart and expect it to be enhance-able.

Skarg · 12-15-2019, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Easy fix... anything you want to enchant must first be of 'fine' quality ($ x10). That will raise the baseline cost for all magic items.

I don't think you should be able to grab a mass-produced cuirass off the shelf at Ye 'Ole Walmart and expect it to be enhance-able.

It seems to me it's usually not smart to do so anyway. Enchanting a non-fine weapon tends to be a waste of an enchanter's time compared to the item you can get if you do both.

The main reasons the above options might look like a bargain are because of the limited apples-to-oranges comparison, the fact that ITL doesn't list fine options for lighter armor, the assumption you can really get enchantments for sale at those prices.

Someone capable enough to use fine plate, and wealthy/influential enough to have enchantments made, would probably really want something more like this:

Fine Plate with +3 armor enchantment ($5000 + $4000 x magic markup)
Stone Flesh ring ($4000 x magic markup)

With no market to be a fair comparison, that's $13,000 (less than the price of a +2 damage +1 DX fine weapon, BTW) x magic markup (which there really should be), which would stop THIRTEEN hits per attack.

Moral: Stacking magic is wicked powerful, and should cost more than the listed prices. If you make magic items abundant, the game starts to become largely about what magic everyone has.

larsdangly · 12-15-2019, 04:27 PM

There is no end to this sort of thing if you accept that magic items can simply be purchased at listed rates. Probably the first order question any group has to ask about their campaign is whether or not this is true. If so, your characters are effectively 'builds' of items constrained by the rule of 5. If not, your characters are more about their stats, talents and spells.

Skarg · 12-15-2019, 04:32 PM

^ Exactly!

hcobb · 12-15-2019, 06:05 PM

Armor breaks after 20 times its hits. Which means that enchanted fine plate needs 120 hits "to die".

The immunity to Break Weapon enchantment only exists for wizards so a magic sword breaks on average one in 216 uses, one in 432 for fine, and one in 1296 for very fine.

Wearing two rings, one of Stone Flesh($4k) and one of 1-die lightning immunity($5k) would ensure that both rings are safe against short of intentional destruction or a 4d+ lightning bolt rod. (You'll get fried, but the rings will be okay.)

Nils_Lindeberg · 12-18-2019, 05:37 PM

A few suggestions to balance out magic items, instead of severely removing them from the setting. Keep the economy and price structure.

If there is a shortage of wizards that can perform enchantments, and there should be, with the new XP rules that limit attribute bloat. We need to recalculate things and see the prices in the book as a best-case scenario.

A good enchanter would need ST 8, DX 14 (+1 with a borrowed charm item) and IQ20. That is a 42 point character (with some spells taken with XP since it is hard to start at IQ 20 on top of that XP investment). That is a truly talented individual. And even the lesser enchanters that only have IQ18 and are not the ones doing the enchanting circle's trickiest things probably need ST 8, DX 8 and IQ 18 and some extra spells bought with XP. And that is an average 30p char that started with IQ 14.

A wizard that is 1 out of 300, that starts out with max IQ, I would give that a chance of (1/3)^6. That is about 1 in 1000. But let's assume that if you are a wizard born, you focus more on IQ in your upbringing, maybe 1/6 of your attribute points go into ST, 2/6 into DX and 3/6 into IQ. That still makes IQ 18 very rare. We are talking university professor rare. About 1% of all wizards get there and most of them would never be allowed to handle any difficult things on their own because one miscast might cost half the kingdom.

So 1 in 30 000 people could be an enchanter (if they wanted to) and out of them only a very select few could reach DX13-15 which is needed for big enchantments or they would be very risky and cost 10 times if not a 100 times more.

So if you take that into account, there should be a job for enchanters, separate from the normal town wizards, that pays way better. And another category again for those few that also have the required DX. Three times the average soldier's or sage's pay doesn't cut it.

So assuming that these guys are like rock stars, the cost for magic items in the book assumes a guild that has severe salary restrictions or a government that only pays a fraction of their true worth. PC should never get that price unless they themselves are those super-talented individuals.

Weapon and armor enchantments, on the other hand, should only be somewhat more expensive than the list price. But even IQ 14 and DX 14ish, is hard to come by. And you almost have to do something dangerous or interesting to get that kind of XP, and ST as a dump stat might get you killed. So again, the job table and the price list is truly a best-case scenario or represent a very controlled situation. The first wizard on any project, the one handling the DX rolls is the bottleneck. The rest are much easier to come by.

So taking the change in XP into consideration, I would say, weapon and armor enchants should be at least 2 times more expensive, lesser magic items 10 times more expensive and greater magic items should never be available for order over the counter, they are just too rare. And if PC manages to set up a Greater Item Enchantment business, then it should make heaps of money, enough to attract so much political attention, that the profit would be in the hands of the powers that be. Probably comparable to opening/owning a good gold mine.

Nils_Lindeberg · 12-18-2019, 05:38 PM

Don't forget that armors and weapons can be repaired by an armorer before they break from long use.

Nils_Lindeberg · 12-18-2019, 05:43 PM

My biggest pet peve is that so many magic items are always on, or have a 0 ST cost. Why? Let them cost ST, just like the spell they are made from, and if you want them to cost 0, make them cost x10 for each point of lower ST cost as the rules suggest.

The rules also say that items work like the spell they are based on, but in reality, half of them break this rule of thumb. And in the worst way, since ST cost per turn is a huge problem for wizards.

12-15-2019, 11:51 AM	#1
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate Fine Plate (for humans) stops 6 hits, -4 DX, $5,000 55.0lb MA 6 +3 Chainmail Stops 6 hits, -3 DX $4,200 30.0lb MA 6 Leather w/Stone Flesh Stops 6 hits, -2 DX $4,100 16lb MA 8 * - Also effective against high level occult zaps. __________________ -HJC

12-15-2019, 03:34 PM	#2
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate Stone Flesh is a massive bargain no matter how you slice it (well, unless your opponent blasts it with lightning and de-enchants it). And yes, a simple comparison has those options more competitive for the (bogus as listed, as you well know since you've also complained about those) prices, but what master armorers mainly do is make fine weapons and armor. In contrast. what wizards who can enchant do, could be all sorts of things. Even when they do spend their time enchanting, and even when they choose to make those enchantments publicly available for the listed book price (which in my campaigns, is almost never), they may be enchanting any number of other sorts of things rather than competing with master armorers. And, enchantments can be added to fine plate just as easily as they can be added to leather or chain. (Which not only is much more protective, but also wears out much less quickly due to damage.) So fine equipment is a different market from enchanted equipment, and the enchantment prices listed are super bargains. The smart shopper (if he can find enchantment available at all) will figure out how much armor they can stand to wear (because of the weight, DX, MA, convenience and social issues) and then enchant that as much as they can manage.

12-15-2019, 04:27 PM	#5
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate There is no end to this sort of thing if you accept that magic items can simply be purchased at listed rates. Probably the first order question any group has to ask about their campaign is whether or not this is true. If so, your characters are effectively 'builds' of items constrained by the rule of 5. If not, your characters are more about their stats, talents and spells.

12-15-2019, 04:32 PM	#6
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate ^ Exactly!

12-15-2019, 06:05 PM	#7
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate Armor breaks after 20 times its hits. Which means that enchanted fine plate needs 120 hits "to die". The immunity to Break Weapon enchantment only exists for wizards so a magic sword breaks on average one in 216 uses, one in 432 for fine, and one in 1296 for very fine. Wearing two rings, one of Stone Flesh($4k) and one of 1-die lightning immunity($5k) would ensure that both rings are safe against short of intentional destruction or a 4d+ lightning bolt rod. (You'll get fried, but the rings will be okay.) __________________ -HJC

12-18-2019, 05:37 PM	#8
Nils_Lindeberg Join Date: Jul 2018	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate A few suggestions to balance out magic items, instead of severely removing them from the setting. Keep the economy and price structure. If there is a shortage of wizards that can perform enchantments, and there should be, with the new XP rules that limit attribute bloat. We need to recalculate things and see the prices in the book as a best-case scenario. A good enchanter would need ST 8, DX 14 (+1 with a borrowed charm item) and IQ20. That is a 42 point character (with some spells taken with XP since it is hard to start at IQ 20 on top of that XP investment). That is a truly talented individual. And even the lesser enchanters that only have IQ18 and are not the ones doing the enchanting circle's trickiest things probably need ST 8, DX 8 and IQ 18 and some extra spells bought with XP. And that is an average 30p char that started with IQ 14. A wizard that is 1 out of 300, that starts out with max IQ, I would give that a chance of (1/3)^6. That is about 1 in 1000. But let's assume that if you are a wizard born, you focus more on IQ in your upbringing, maybe 1/6 of your attribute points go into ST, 2/6 into DX and 3/6 into IQ. That still makes IQ 18 very rare. We are talking university professor rare. About 1% of all wizards get there and most of them would never be allowed to handle any difficult things on their own because one miscast might cost half the kingdom. So 1 in 30 000 people could be an enchanter (if they wanted to) and out of them only a very select few could reach DX13-15 which is needed for big enchantments or they would be very risky and cost 10 times if not a 100 times more. So if you take that into account, there should be a job for enchanters, separate from the normal town wizards, that pays way better. And another category again for those few that also have the required DX. Three times the average soldier's or sage's pay doesn't cut it. So assuming that these guys are like rock stars, the cost for magic items in the book assumes a guild that has severe salary restrictions or a government that only pays a fraction of their true worth. PC should never get that price unless they themselves are those super-talented individuals. Weapon and armor enchantments, on the other hand, should only be somewhat more expensive than the list price. But even IQ 14 and DX 14ish, is hard to come by. And you almost have to do something dangerous or interesting to get that kind of XP, and ST as a dump stat might get you killed. So again, the job table and the price list is truly a best-case scenario or represent a very controlled situation. The first wizard on any project, the one handling the DX rolls is the bottleneck. The rest are much easier to come by. So taking the change in XP into consideration, I would say, weapon and armor enchants should be at least 2 times more expensive, lesser magic items 10 times more expensive and greater magic items should never be available for order over the counter, they are just too rare. And if PC manages to set up a Greater Item Enchantment business, then it should make heaps of money, enough to attract so much political attention, that the profit would be in the hands of the powers that be. Probably comparable to opening/owning a good gold mine.

12-18-2019, 05:38 PM	#9
Nils_Lindeberg Join Date: Jul 2018	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate Don't forget that armors and weapons can be repaired by an armorer before they break from long use.

12-18-2019, 05:43 PM	#10
Nils_Lindeberg Join Date: Jul 2018	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate My biggest pet peve is that so many magic items are always on, or have a 0 ST cost. Why? Let them cost ST, just like the spell they are made from, and if you want them to cost 0, make them cost x10 for each point of lower ST cost as the rules suggest. The rules also say that items work like the spell they are based on, but in reality, half of them break this rule of thumb. And in the worst way, since ST cost per turn is a huge problem for wizards.