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Old 12-22-2019, 05:00 PM   #1
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

I looked at H Cobbs video of a cavalry charge attack and the horses just moved straight into the first line of pole weapon wielders without getting attacked.

"Initiating HTH combat is
considered an attack.
To initiate HTH combat, a figure moves onto the enemy’s
hex. If the attacking figure is disengaged, this is a regular
move. If the attacking figure is engaged, he may shift onto a
figure engaging him to attempt HTH, even if he is engaged
with other figures as well. When you’re surrounded by foes,
sometimes the best thing you can do is jump on one of them!"

So my question is, is this correct? The charging knights started their move disengaged, they do have higher MA (or their mounts do), and they move into the defender's hex forcing savings rolls to not fall down and be trampled. The defenders never get a chance to fight back if they fail their saving roll.

One could interpret the above to mean that if the horse gets engaged by the footman, they have to stop and can not follow through with the movement into the footman's hex. But since you need two footmen to engage a horse, the charging horsemen could always decide to move close to the defenders that either a half step in front of the others if their battle line is set up against the hex grain, or charge from right to left or vice verse if the line is set up with the grain. Either way, as soon as one guy is overrun, the next defender beside him, will also be charged, or every other guy will be charged if the line is against the grain and then the rest will be charged.

There really isn't a way to set up a line that can attack first with spears or even pike axes, without getting knocked down or out of the way first.

Pikes can do it, but no other pole weapons.

So, my interpretation focus on the HTH part of being an attack. And the explanation of a regular move or a shift, means how far you can move, before the actual HTH initiation "attack" that happens in DX-order (pole weapons going first). This would mean that you always move up to someone, and then during actions you move on top and do an overrun or initiate HTH.
Is this RAW, RAI or just an attempt to house rule a broken rule?

There is also a rule about two-hex creatures not needing 2 people to engage it, but 3-hex creatures do. Furthermore, there is a rule about a second line or a wall, protecting a footman from an overrun if they can't get out of the way. But even then the chargers can go from the left to the right and start to unravel the line even if they will end up being engaged by the second rank after overrunning the first one.

How do you rule this? I am planning for a military campaign, so this will come up now and then.

I also wonder about the size restrictions, it says that a one hex figure will engage a 2-hex creature since it is bigger than 1/3 of the larger one. I kind of vaguely remember war horses being 3-hex big, but I can't find that rule.

Last edited by Nils_Lindeberg; 12-22-2019 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 12-22-2019, 05:39 PM   #2
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

I didn't watch his video (and another video I watched of his had me posting several mistakes), so I won't presume to speak for the details I didn't watch, but...

Technically, yes that sounds correct. It's not attempting HTH, but doing a multi-hex figure "push" during movement, which happens before combat, even pole weapon attacks (but not before pike movement-phase attacks).

So the HTH rules don't apply.

And the Push rules do allow a multi-hex figure to move into the hexes of foes who could move back somewhere. MA doesn't matter. Engagement stops the rider BUT they explicitly then get to move one more hex into any adjacent foes. The Pushed foes then get a DX roll to step back, and if they fail, they instead fall underfoot (but are not considered in HTH at that point), but then during the action phase get ANOTHER DX roll on their action point, to "roll out from under" and stand in an adjacent hex.

There is one way to set up a line which can't be Pushed, which is to fill all your hexes behind you with allies, so the front line has no where to be pushed back into, which denies the Push ability.

Or, just make your 3/DX rolls.

It's not a house rule - it's all explicitly in ITL, as it was in Advanced Melee. Relevant rule sections are "Moving Onto Other Figures" on ITL p.104, and "Trampling", on ITL p.126-127. Also important for playing such a charge would be "Mounted Combat" on ITL p.130-33, especially "Engaged and Disengaged" on ITL p.130-131.

However, I hear and share your concern, and in such cases I would tend to solve it by using the Pike rules for resolving polearm attacks during movement, before allowing the Push.
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Old 12-22-2019, 06:41 PM   #3
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

I didn't watch the video either, but this sounds like a problem that arose through intentionally reading the most broken possible interpretation into the text. Given the wording and intent of the pole weapon and pike rules in charge situations, it seems obvious that the charging horsemen should be subjected to one attack from any properly set pole weapon against which they have charged, but that if they survive this they will get to do all the suggested things - push backs, entry into HTH, etc.
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Old 12-22-2019, 06:43 PM   #4
hcobb
 
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Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

Here's the video in question

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kg8bKDFouc

And yes, the slaughter is all by the book.

When I rerun this I'm going to allow the defender to choose to either stand their ground and do a stop hit, or jump out of the way.

Also I'll allow two handed pole weapons to negate the -2 height penalty to strike at defenders above the attackers, such as on horseback.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#HTH

I already applied some of this to figure out how to fight slimes (which isn't completely spelled out in the rulebook).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcWPP8carjE
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Old 12-22-2019, 11:31 PM   #5
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I didn't watch the video either, but this sounds like a problem that arose through intentionally reading the most broken possible interpretation into the text. Given the wording and intent of the pole weapon and pike rules in charge situations, it seems obvious that the charging horsemen should be subjected to one attack from any properly set pole weapon against which they have charged, but that if they survive this they will get to do all the suggested things - push backs, entry into HTH, etc.
Well, while I agree that I personally would tend to want to use the Pike rules and apply them to ordinary polearms in these cases, I would say that it would be up to the GM to notice the issue and come up with that if they hadn't thought of it before.

It seems to me from obsessively watching TFT forums for the last year or so that not many GMs seem to be aware of the Push rules, the trample rules, the pike rules or the mounted combat rules.

It's not a special interpretation Henry has used in this case, and it is a fairly major gap in the rules, created by the conflict of having the Push rules take place during movement, but polearms (except pikes) acting during action, which is after movement. The pike rules show a way to handle people moving into polearm reach without being engaged, but don't say to do it for the non-pike cases where that also happens (i.e. Pushes, and other moves that ignore engagement or don't result in engagement due to the size and/or speed of the mover).

BTW, it also points to a standard way to handle "you don't engage me" house rules.

And if you don't allow it, illogical abuses can occur.

On the other hand, RAW Push itself often isn't all that bad unless you miss one or both of your DX rolls when being pushed. It also often just allows the people you're trying to trample to step around you and/or attack you from the side.
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Old 12-23-2019, 02:39 AM   #6
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

Reducing complexity is why I want to have one rule that governs anything that moves into a figure's hex: Slime, wasp, rat, pirate, horse, dragon, elephant. It's all the same procedure.
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Old 12-23-2019, 09:11 AM   #7
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

The problem is that if the defenders setup a two-line deep formation, they don't get to attack first, they stop the overrun possibility completely, which is just as odd.

I am all for the basic rule of charge and overrun, but I think I will go with Skargs suggestion and treat all set polearm wielders get to use the Pike rules. Here a longer spear or halberd will be better than a shorter one, in case the chargers also wield spears. Javelins are too short though since they can't jab.
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Old 12-23-2019, 10:44 AM   #8
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

The RAW outcome of getting bowled over or engaged in HTH by big foes is a good set of rules, in my opinion, for non pole weapons. And I would say a non-set pole weapon should suffer the same fate. But if a pole weapon is set vs. charge, then it is counter intuitive to use anything other than the pike rules. As far as I can tell, everyone here agrees with that (don't they?). If so, then I really don't understand why you would make yourself play with what feels like a bad ruling.
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Old 12-23-2019, 10:48 AM   #9
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

What happens when a slime moves into your hex?

If you use my one rule for trampling, HTH and slimes then it's all the same procedure. Slimes are unlikely to be stopped by a single hit so hop out of the way and hope you don't roll a 12 or more than your DX on two dice.
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Old 12-23-2019, 02:04 PM   #10
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Charging and Trampling vs. Pole Weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
The RAW outcome of getting bowled over or engaged in HTH by big foes is a good set of rules, in my opinion, for non pole weapons. And I would say a non-set pole weapon should suffer the same fate. But if a pole weapon is set vs. charge, then it is counter intuitive to use anything other than the pike rules. As far as I can tell, everyone here agrees with that (don't they?). If so, then I really don't understand why you would make yourself play with what feels like a bad ruling.
I think most people probably mostly agree, and I also think most people don't know, forget, avoid, and/or almost never get around to using the pike and/or mounted combat rules. I think many also don't know of forget the Push and Trample rules, and/or forget about using them when they are moving an NPC multi-hex figure.

I expect the differences might be in what we think about the details of how it should work, e.g.:
* Which weapons should get an attack before being pushed (someone said no javelins, some might want to include hand weapons...)?
* Should it require "set versus charge" or not, and what does that specifically mean (only polearms who didn't move a hex?).


Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
What happens when a slime moves into your hex?

If you use my one rule for trampling, HTH and slimes then it's all the same procedure. Slimes are unlikely to be stopped by a single hit so hop out of the way and hope you don't roll a 12 or more than your DX on two dice.
This is interesting and I like your attempt to improve HTH attempts, but I think the discussion belongs in its own thread in the House Rules subforum.
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