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Old 01-26-2011, 06:11 AM   #21
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: Insubstantiality/ invisible

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Originally Posted by B9anders View Post
I always sort of assumed that 'affects machines' was a question of kirlian cameras and the like and that regular devices such as normal cameras and videos would only catch very subtle outlines of an invisible character and certainly not in all frames.
It's a left over effect from the tropes about creatures who were invisible to mirrors and whose images could not be reflected or captured by analog cameras.

Porting those tropes directly into a digital world creates certain difficulties in rationalizing things away, so it then becomes an issue of what is going on in the setting, specifying how the magic or alternate physics works, and going with that.
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Old 01-26-2011, 06:45 AM   #22
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Default Re: Insubstantiality/ invisible

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
The point where people start reviewing the videotapes, and setting up motion detectors? Although on second though maybe the standard should be "Are your eyes pointed at the person you are trying to see?". Then you could see them in mirrors and display screens but not through electronic goggles.
I don't think that's how it works (and the Visible Reflection limitation pretty much rules it out), but the concept of Invisibility without one of Affects Machines and Glamour is so wonky I don't know that I would allow it in any kind of game (unless machines with any kind of sight were so rare the enhancement was a complete waste of points).

On the other hand, a character with Invisibility (Affects Machines, Visible Reflection), Warp (Portal: reflective surface), and Dependency (Reflected image of self, Constant) is just too awesome not to use at some point.
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Old 01-26-2011, 08:55 AM   #23
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Default Re: Insubstantiality/ invisible

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Then at what point do you need Affects Machines, then? To trick AIs?
Not just AIs - anything automatic, whether triggered optically or by crossing an IR beam or motion sensor or pressure plate. Of course, having those alarms go off or those doors open may be of limited utility to guards that can't see the intruder...
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:13 AM   #24
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Default Re: Insubstantiality/ invisible

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Not just AIs - anything automatic, whether triggered optically or by crossing an IR beam or motion sensor or pressure plate.
Invisibility shouldn't have any effect on those last two, regardless.

Personally (with the caveat that I almost certainly wouldn't ever use unmodified Invisibility) I think it is supposed to let you take photos and video of invisible people. So any kind of digitial optics will negate it.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:38 AM   #25
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Default Re: Insubstantiality/ invisible

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding
Invisibility shouldn't have any effect on those last two, regardless.
Invisibility definitely will not affect detection by pressure plates. Motion sensors might be spoofed, if they use optics (there are some that depend on acoustics).

Last edited by Not another shrubbery; 01-26-2011 at 01:45 PM. Reason: "a"ffect, not "e"ffect ;p
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:41 AM   #26
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Default Re: Insubstantiality/ invisible

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Invisibility shouldn't have any effect on those last two, regardless.

Personally (with the caveat that I almost certainly wouldn't ever use unmodified Invisibility) I think it is supposed to let you take photos and video of invisible people. So any kind of digitial optics will negate it.
Well, it should have an effect on the IR beam if you've bought Extended Spectrum* or whatever the limitation to be invisible to other wavelengths is called as well as Affects Machines, but as for the motion sensor and the pressure plate, you're right.

And if any kind of digital optics foils it, then current IR goggles that incorporate CCDs will certainly let you see folks with unmodified Invisibility.

Personally, I'm almost tempted to house rule vanilla Invisibility as affecting visible light and anything that uses it to see, including machines, by default, with the Glamour limitation meaning that automata and photographs aren't affected.
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:26 AM   #27
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Default Re: Insubstantiality/ invisible

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Personally, I'm almost tempted to house rule vanilla Invisibility as affecting visible light and anything that uses it to see, including machines, by default, with the Glamour limitation meaning that automata and photographs aren't affected.
Now that you suggest this, I would do this too. Visible Reflection already allows for where the trope of the "invisible" creature who can be seen by cameras and not people originally comes from. I've actually run into quite a few Vampire:tM players who thought all cameras (even pinhole analog ones or any kind of digital ones) required mirrors, and I really do think this is how the idea got entrenched, never mind the obvious question of where exactly the mirrors are in a cellphone camera.

I believe it's a Supernatural Feature to have the inverse case (visible to people, but never any reflection) which covers another swath of applicable concepts.

There's room for "No Reflection, switchable" where you're visible directly all the time and can optionally have a reflection... and weird magical/cyberpsi "Invisible to Machines but VISIBLE to People" powers but considering how very rarely either of these concepts come up I don't fault the basic rules for not considering them.
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Old 01-26-2011, 01:27 PM   #28
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Default Re: Insubstantiality/ invisible

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
I don't think that's how it works (and the Visible Reflection limitation pretty much rules it out), but the concept of Invisibility without one of Affects Machines and Glamour is so wonky I don't know that I would allow it in any kind of game (unless machines with any kind of sight were so rare the enhancement was a complete waste of points).
Agreed, but I'd go further: I would require "Affects Machines" by default in any game except ones where "Doesn't affect machines" had a specific in-setting rationale. That is, not affecting machines should be a specific limitation on the basic trait of being invisible. In a setting without machines, you might take "Doesn't affect golems or elementals" to get a similar limitation.

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Old 01-26-2011, 04:22 PM   #29
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Default Re: Insubstantiality/ invisible

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
And if any kind of digital optics foils it, then current IR goggles that incorporate CCDs will certainly let you see folks with unmodified Invisibility.
What exactly are you all talking about when you say, "IR Goggles" anyway? Are you talking about Thermographic Optics? None of those are really "goggles". Or you actually mean night vision devices (which are more properly light amplification)? It might be simpler to just talk about "optics" in general.

At any rate, yes, I think so. Any device that displays an image should overcome the unmodified trait. This really shouldn't be an issue. These kinds of optics are difficult to use (restricting vision and typically monocular), and can't be used in daylight (where Invisibility is most useful).

AFAICT unmodified the trait is supposed to represent the sort of invisibility that paranormal "research" attributes to ghosts. They can't be seen but they can be photographed and if you've ever watched one of those ghost-hunting "documentaries" you'll know they allegedly show up on thermographs and night-vision too.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 01-26-2011 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 01-26-2011, 04:51 PM   #30
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Default Re: Insubstantiality/ invisible

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Now that you suggest this, I would do this too. Visible Reflection already allows for where the trope of the "invisible" creature who can be seen by cameras and not people originally comes from. I've actually run into quite a few Vampire:tM players who thought all cameras (even pinhole analog ones or any kind of digital ones) required mirrors, and I really do think this is how the idea got entrenched, never mind the obvious question of where exactly the mirrors are in a cellphone camera.
Visible reflection would make you perfectly visible through the viewfinder of an SLR camera, but not on the resulting picture (unless you consider a photograph a "static reflection" or some such).
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