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Old 11-19-2011, 01:50 AM   #41
Gorkamorka
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Default Re: How visible would a flying super be on radar?

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Originally Posted by Gorkamorka View Post
Side question:
Can the flying super be targeted by a guided missile?
I was mostly wondering if the Air to Air missile the F-15 has can target it.
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Old 11-19-2011, 02:01 AM   #42
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Default Re: How visible would a flying super be on radar?

While a human body would almost certainly be filtered out of most military radar returns (Assuming low speed), it looks like it should be plenty visible if not filtered out.

Mind, I'm going entirely by what I can find online, so I can't guarantee its accuracy: The radar visibility of the human body appears to vary depending on the frequency of the radar, with a high-end of around +2-3 dBsm and rare spikes as low as -30 dBsm. The average appears around -5 dBsm. Stealth aircraft like the F-117, F-22, and B2 are supposed to range from around -30 to -40 dBsm (Possibly even lower for the B2, but good luck finding out for sure). That means a human body should have almost 1,000 times the radar cross-section of a F117 -- A stealth aircraft that has been detected by a 40-year-old radar system at 40km and shot by a 45-year-old missile system at 13km. In fact, it looks like a human body has from 1/2 to 1/6 the radar cross-section of a non-stealth fighter. So long as the filters don't remove it, a human body should be very visible.
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Old 11-19-2011, 07:16 AM   #43
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Default Re: How visible would a flying super be on radar?

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That means a human body should have almost 1,000 times the radar cross-section of a F117 -- A stealth aircraft that has been detected by a 40-year-old radar system at 40km and shot by a 45-year-old missile system at 13km. In fact, it looks like a human body has from 1/2 to 1/6 the radar cross-section of a non-stealth fighter. So long as the filters don't remove it, a human body should be very visible.
You shouldn't use two incidents as your standard while ignoring things like gallivanting all over the skies of Iraq with impunity.

From early reports on the F-117 it's highly dependant on ground crew maintenance. A misaligned landing gear bay door was said to reduce stealth to a suprisingly large degree.

So your sightings and shootdown could be the result of crit fails on Mechanic (Stealth Aircraft). The frequency of the detections and single interception appears more likely to be that than basic excellence of radar.

Your reports of the crossection of ordinary fighter aircraft is probably more relevant. In an air-to-air siituations you're probably not geting the long axis of the human body so we'd go with the 1/6th fighure. That would reduce range of detection and engagement accordingly and make most situatiuons non-viable.

If you wonder what Gurps has to say about it, modern fighters are generally SM+4.. So that would be subtracted from spotting chances. If the human being's completely non-metallic construction was at least as good (compared to conventional aircraft) as TL9 radar stealth that's be another -4.

So that would reduce the AMRAAM's 50 mile engagement range to 2 miles (if it would even recognize the target).
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Old 11-19-2011, 07:39 AM   #44
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Default Re: How visible would a flying super be on radar?

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And in some world, a flying super may be required by law to wear a transponder, a radar reflector and safety gear.

On this subject, the excellent "Law and the Multiverse" website has done a couple of pieces about how flying supers would interact with the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration -- both natural fliers like Superman and tech-assisted ones like Batman or Iron Man.

http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2010/...-registration/

http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2011/...affic-control/

These obviously apply to worlds where supers are known rather than unknown, but the articles are still good reads.

EDIT: Meanwhile, the comics themselves seem to have done at least a little thought on the subject (and yes, this is safe for work): http://superdickery.com/index.php?op...-man&Itemid=38
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Old 11-19-2011, 05:39 PM   #45
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Default Re: How visible would a flying super be on radar?

One thing I've noticed is that everyone seems to be focusing on the effects of radar on normal human flesh, but what about indestructible supers like Superman or supers with weird "anti-friction" force fields like the Flash? Also, this might be hard to adjudicate using real world science, but what about supers with weird energy powers like Green Lantern, Blue Beetle, etc.
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Old 11-19-2011, 06:00 PM   #46
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Default Re: How visible would a flying super be on radar?

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Also, this might be hard to adjudicate using real world science, but what about supers with weird energy powers like Green Lantern, Blue Beetle, etc.
<shrug> Rubber science can bounce any way you want it to.

In Gurps though it probably ought to documented on the character sheet one way or the other if it priovides a notable plus or minus.
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Old 11-19-2011, 06:54 PM   #47
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Default Re: How visible would a flying super be on radar?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
If the human being's completely non-metallic construction was at least as good (compared to conventional aircraft) as TL9 radar stealth that's be another -4.
I already mentioned the strength of radar returns for the human body. With 1,000 times the radar cross section of a TL8 stealth aircraft, a human body is nowhere near as stealthy as TL9 radar stealth designs. SM+0 is already 1/8 to 1/10 the size of SM+4, so in GURPS terms (And with a little rounding), the effective difference between detecting a human and detecting a fighter is their SM.
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Old 11-19-2011, 07:30 PM   #48
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Default Re: How visible would a flying super be on radar?

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Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
I already mentioned the strength of radar returns for the human body. With 1,000 times the radar cross section of a TL8 stealth aircraft, a human body is nowhere near as stealthy as TL9 radar stealth designs. SM+0 is already 1/8 to 1/10 the size of SM+4, so in GURPS terms (And with a little rounding), the effective difference between detecting a human and detecting a fighter is their SM.
Radar stealth is not a state. It is a modifier (-4 at TL9). It is not at all hard for me to beleive that a completely non-metallic object is innately harder to to detect with radar than a meal one covered with radar-absorbing material.

Shape si also important and again inherently the human body has no true striaight lines. it is (you will pardon the irony) made up of organic curves.

Your position appears to be that all materials reflect radar equally except for deliberately stealthy ones. Also that al shapes reflect radar equally, again except for deliberately stealthy ones.

If this is so, I can tell you that both assumptions are false. A human body is not just as detectable as a metal object designed with simple straight lines of the same size. There are inherent advantages to organic, non-metallic construction.
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Old 11-19-2011, 07:46 PM   #49
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Default Re: How visible would a flying super be on radar?

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So how widespread is radar coverage around the continental United States?
Scroll down to slide 37 in the slide deck here:

http://ecfsdocs.fcc.gov/filings/2001...508027452.html

which is the results of an analysis of the potential effects of deploying ultra-wideband transmitters on about a dozen different systems, including radar. This particular slide shows coverage of the continental US by number of radars covering that location. The short answer is "everywhere"; in crowded locations such as the Washington-Boston corridor, you might have as many as 18 radars looking at you. (There's a paper on the IEEE journal archive that discusses the problem. Apparently there's a 4-bit radar ID code, allowing 15 distinct radars (0 isn't used), which has become a problem in some areas.

Previous discussion already covered the question of whether these particular systems could spot human flesh. Also, the fact that supers aren't know suggests that the civilian ATC systems aren't built to detect them. (Unless, of course, the Men in Black surreptitiously added that feature...)

The good news is that from the GM point of view, you've got a reasonable argument for any place along the scale that suits your desired plot effects from full Big Brother coverage to just the military to only a few supers-hunting teams.
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Old 11-19-2011, 08:26 PM   #50
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Default Re: How visible would a flying super be on radar?

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Your position appears to be that all materials reflect radar equally except for deliberately stealthy ones. Also that al shapes reflect radar equally, again except for deliberately stealthy ones.
No, my position was that the measured radar return for a human body, from scientific testing, averaged about -5 dBsm, with variations up to +5 dBsm and rare dips as low as -30 dBsm (Depending on frequency; most military radars I could find were in the upper range). Comparatively, a typical fighter measures around +5 to +10 dBsm and a stealth aircraft measures around -30 to -40 dBsm. This is actual radar return strength, so already including material, size, shape, etc. That's what radar cross section means. The average human body gave a return roughly 1,000 times stronger than a F117 or F22. Adjusting that further based on materials is double-dipping (And also wildly speculative).
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